Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[CrashCash]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but also, consider what mis-information is going to do for Zero.  You start a "service manual" on a forum of users and backyard mechanics, it fairly demands that Zero is going to have to weigh in and deal with erroneous information.  If they want to start a support forum themselves, that's one thing, but I wouldn't, as them, welcome an unauthorized effort.

Well that has a very simple solution: release a damn manual.

It's not like we have much of an option.

Other than telling prospective owners "hey, this is great but when it breaks, you really can't get it fixed. so hold off on buying one"

Edit: and I've had 3 or 4 interested people in the "bike group" here at Oracle decide to hold off to see how mine gets fixed.

[Doug S]

BMW never really wants people to work on their bikes, just bring it in to the dealer and hand over your credit card. So service and repair information was hard to come by during the early days of those models.

That's fine, and it doesn't surprise me that BMW would prefer that; service is very a lucrative business for a vehicle manufacturer. But Zero has, at best, a spotty record in terms of dealer-supplied service as well. There are many owners who live entirely too far from their dealers, and there are far too few dealers overall. In addition, Zero probably isn't making any money from service, since their dealers are all freelancers. So it does seem reasonable to me that Zero should do everything possible to assist in people helping themselves whenever they can.

But I would have to agree with Ted that if you don't know what you are doing when it comes to the electrical power systems in electric vehicles, you could do a lot of damage to expensive parts if you misunderstood even the best of instructions.

That's true for just about anything, especially vehicles of all types. Gasoline is toxic, highly flammable, and the fumes can make you pass out. We're just much more used to working with it than high-voltage batteries.

But in the end, more information is better than less information and it is up to the user of this information to take responsibility for the results of their actions.   

Bingo. If not for all the ****ing lawyers in this country, manufacturers wouldn't have to be so paranoid about passing on information of value to their customers.

[NoiseBoy]

If I hosed down my ICE car and it stopped working I would have the manufacturer repair it under warranty. If the Zero can't survive a light hosing without needing to be stripped down every few months I will find another mode of transport.

[teddillard]

If memory serves, the Zero is running a 100VDC powertrain delivering about 600A. 

Anybody who thinks that's just about the same as working on a gas bike is a making the best possible case for not releasing a shop manual I could imagine.  Lawyers and the people who use them notwithstanding. 

And to be perfectly clear, in my earlier posts I said very specifically "If it were my bike...".  Probably a bad choice of words, but the purpose was to illustrate the troubleshooting that I'd use to attack the problem.  I've built 4 electric bikes, and have over 45 years experience working on gas bikes. 

If you do not understand how to work on high-voltage systems safely, please leave it to people who do. 

[Doug S]

Then I'd say it again.  If it were my bike, whatever the circumstances, I'd undo every connector, every boot, clean it, dry it and seal it...This isn't particularly unusual.  I've seen time and time again on bikes of every description - connectors that are just a bit unseated or cracked, or dirt is interfering with the seal.

Sure, we've all seen such things. But on successful, mainstream vehicles, only as the rare exception. Are you REALLY saying I should have to personally strip down my newly-purchased vehicle and seal every connector before I can confidently wash it with a hose? I can't believe you're really suggesting that. Would you recommend doing that to the owner of a new Ford F150? Assuming your answer is no, why not?

If you'd answer yes, you have an extremely low bar for vehicle reliability. I think the huge majority of vehicle owners in this country would very, very strongly disagree with you.

[CrashCash]

I'd agree with Ted. I personally poured water out of many a connector to restore a bike's electrical system to working order. Not in the last 5 years, thankfully.

I had a high-tech but improperly assembled connector on my SV-650 cause my speedometer & dash to fail in the first heavy rain.

Edit: to clarify, you shouldn't have to strip apart every connector, but if you start getting electrical faults, that's the place to start. And no, you shouldn't have this problem on a brand new vehicle, but feces occurs.

Pet peeve: And that's the good thing about a service manual. They tell you where all the connectors are, even the REALLY hidden ones.

[firepower]

Rights to Repair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act

[Justin Andrews]

newly-purchased vehicle and seal every connector before I can confidently wash it with a hose?

Depends, Duccati or Suzuki, it would'nt be a bad idea...

Every single damn Suzuki I've owned (x5) failed due to a problem with a connector, hell I remember once riding a YZF-750 down the road wondering why the dash had gone partly dead, and "what was that new light that had come on under the fairing all about?" turned out the "light" was arching inside a connector.

[teddillard]

Sure, we've all seen such things. But on successful, mainstream vehicles, only as the rare exception. Are you REALLY saying I should have to personally strip down my newly-purchased vehicle and seal every connector before I can confidently wash it with a hose? I can't believe you're really suggesting that. Would you recommend doing that to the owner of a new Ford F150? Assuming your answer is no, why not?

If you'd answer yes, you have an extremely low bar for vehicle reliability. I think the huge majority of vehicle owners in this country would very, very strongly disagree with you.

I'm not here to spar with you.  In fact, I'm having trouble figuring why I'm here at all.

You don't own a mainstream vehicle.  You don't own a F150.  You don't own a "newly purchased vehicle", even.  It's not a "rare exception".  Even if your bike was made by Yamaha, it's electric, not gas.  I'm not "suggesting" anything.  I think I was quite clear stating my experience. We're not talking about "vehicle owners", we're talking about electric motorcycle owners, a subset of a subset.  I'm not even saying you should wash it with a hose. 

If you want to wallow in the fact that your year-old "maintenance free" $17k bike needs some attention, be my guest.  If you want to fix it and go riding, I've given you my advice.

If you want an appliance, get a Toyota.

Done.

[CrashCash]

I have no problem working on my bike. I don't expect any physical piece of equipment to be truly zero maintenance.

My personal problem with my Zero is that I have no information on it. Not only do I not know where most of the connectors are, but they're all these 00-size high-amp conductors running around, and I really want some advice from a service manual on how to treat them. But... I can't get a service manual.

I do know in other high power applications, the order in which you unplug things can become important to not letting all the magic smoke out, like in mainframe printers with kilowatt size power supplies.

I want to know "Do this. Don't do that. Unplug A *before* you unplug B. Don't let X touch Y. Remove fuse F before working on system Z. Use current shunt tool Y before doing A, B, or C."

For example, when installing my power tank, it mentioned I should use what looked like a current shunt (a connector with a 100W lightbulb attached) "to drain stranded currents as described in the service manual"

Since I didn't have a manual, it was "whelp, guess that's not happening, eh..."

To misquote Samuel L. Jackson: "A manual, motherfucker! Do you have it?"

[m0t0-ryder]

Before messing around with ANY high voltage lines on your Zero be sure power (and charging) are removed.
You can verify there is no High Voltage present (outside the battery housing) by measuring across the large lugs on the auxiliary charge port.
Look for 116VDC (max). If it's not there it's OK to work the high voltage areas of the bike. (EXCEPT inside the battery itself)

[steven_first]

I think that because high voltage electric EV's are quite different from normal vehicles the manufactures assume that if they do not provide a repair or maintenance manual then obviously you won't try to work on it yourself.  Now obviously that is not correct but I could see a manufacture thinking that way.  If this was Yamaha and it was there Ebike they would have a service manual without a doubt.  But because all of Zero has been dedicated to Ebikes they don't have the culture or experience to know that users demand manuals.  Now that is my two cents but I think it is true.

I don't think that Zero thinks of it's self as a bike company; I think it feels it is a tech company.  When I called to ask questions about the bikes the tech I talked to at Zero knew a lot about motors and batteries and not so much on the actual motorcycle.  I go the distinct feeling that this guy was a computer guy not a bike guy.  Where I am going with this is that I think between the lack of manuals and the distinct hydrophobia the bikes are more tech and less motorcycle right now.  You would hose down your F150 but most people are not going to open the hood and spray down the engine bay. 

I think over the next few years as Zero grows we will see a transition from tech to motorcycle; in fact, it has already begun.  Tech support will follow sales.  Things are slow now because Zero needs dealers.  Dealers sell and fix motorcycles with engines.  Zero motorcycles have electric motors and big bad batteries and these dealer mechanics know how to tune carbs and adjust valves but that does not translate into using a multimeter to check for stray currents on a 100VDC line with 00 gauge wire! 

Sorry this is more of a rant than anything else!

[Doug S]

Sorry this is more of a rant than anything else!

Seems like this thread has invoked a fair amount of ranting. Probably my fault since I was pretty disappointed when I started it, and strong emotions obviously came out in my original post.

Bottom line: I'm an EE, and I have no problem working on my own machinery, but that doesn't invalidate my original point, which anybody is free to agree or disagree with: In my opinion, Zero has a ways to go before meeting the reliability standard met by most motorcycles, and vehicles in general. Nobody would hesitate to hose-wash any other vehicle (car or motorcycle) with a hose, in fact that's the normal way to keep a vehicle clean. The fact that that seems to have knocked my bike out of commission (if only for a day until it dried out) doesn't speak well of the ability of the bike to resist getting wet.

And that's all I'm saying. Again, I realize Zero is still a small manufacturer with little experience, and I'm still an early adopter. Doesn't mean I shouldn't expect to be able to safely wash my bike.

[steven_first]

I do agree with you.  A vehicle with hydrophobia is not going to get along very well in this world.  Me however, I think when I get my bike I will water proof everything myself IMMEDIATELY.  I don't want to not know what is and isn't spray-able (triple negative! .  I hope that the FX is more water friendly than the sports bikes but I am not going to risk anything.

Me being an EE myself I know that water can do to electronics and how un-repairable waterlogged PCB's can be so I am going to avoid that whole issue altogether and do it myself.  I don't assume anything when it comes to water no matter who makes it be it Ford, Zero, or Yamaha. 

[teddillard]

...I know that water can do to electronics and how un-repairable waterlogged PCB's can be so I am going to avoid that whole issue altogether and do it myself.  I don't assume anything when it comes to water no matter who makes it be it Ford, Zero, or Yamaha.

wuuut?  Good common sense?  ...from an engineer?  PrePOSTerous.    (I keeed, I keeed)

As far as "all you're saying", you're simply committing a common logical fallacy, Doug S.  Here, this might help: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

...specifically, what we who've studied logic (and not "EE") like to call composition/division: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

I've had Hondas, Yamahas, Fords, Chevys, BSAs, Triumphs, Ducatis, and who knows what else that have been wonky after a hosing. Everything (well, except the Triumphs and BSAs, and a 1964 Checker Marathon I had for a winter) I consider well protected against moisture, but they all had a couple of untidy connectors, which, once fixed, weren't problems anymore. 

You've had a couple of problems with one instance of one product after a year of use, (something, as I've said before, wouldn't surprise me with any vehicle of any type) and you're claiming the product/company "has a ways to go"? 

I don't think that's fair (and the only reason I continue to post on this kind-of-inane thread).

Zero and Brammo, for that matter, both make a remarkable product. 

All I need to point to is Terry's last few days of his last XC (eastbound) trip, where he weathered some of the worst rain I've ever seen anybody ride in, without a failure.  That was truly impressive.  Yet see his comment above, again, for some good common sense: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4469.msg29102#msg29102

Unfortunately, not a lot of people get on forums and post "I just WASHED MY BIKE WITH A HOSE and NOTHING HAPPENED!!!"