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Author Topic: Trouble in paradise  (Read 5692 times)

Doug S

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Trouble in paradise
« on: March 16, 2015, 10:34:52 AM »

I have a 2014 SR, one of the first, if not the first available to the public (I put my deposit down in October 2013, the day the SR was announced). I've been positively and proudly vociferous in my praise of the brand and the model...it's been an incredible joy to own and to ride.

But I'm beginning to wonder if I can continue saying that.

Earlier today, I had a guy come up to me and pepper me with question after question about the bike, which has happened before, and which I love. I honestly elucidated point after point, and as is usual in my experience EVERY point is in favor of the EV, until the very last question. "What did you pay for it, $6000?" came the question. "No", I answered, "it was $17,000". No apologies for facts. It did cost $17,000.

"Wow."

"Yeah, it's a little pricey, but I've ridden it almost 12,000 miles in the last 13 months, and I figure I've saved around 50c per mile over driving my car. So I've saved well over $5000; that's pretty good return on investment in my book."

The look of astonishment softened. "Yeah, that's not too bad," came the answer. This guy gets it. It may take a while, but like any good investment, it pays for itself, even in the most narrow view -- dollar for dollar. The intangibles don't need to be measured...it's a good investment in the strictest terms. I doubt this gentleman can afford a Zero at present prices, but he's a customer fairly soon. He gets it, he sees the benefits. When he can afford the upfront cost to save some longterm money, he'll spring for it. He wishes he could now, and sees the wisdom in stretching to do it. All Zero needs to do is get the price down within his grasp. The untapped market potential is really, really big.

So I was feeling really good about my decision to spring for the best available solution, when my bike died later this evening. I'd run to the local 7-11 for a quick bite, and the bike refused to take me home...it wouldn't "start". I had to call the local tow truck, he was an idiot and wound up turning my bike on its side, and the bike still doesn't run. The "charging" indicator on the dash won't turn off, which leads me to believe that the failure is related to the charger, which was replaced just a few weeks ago (bike wouldn't charge). Of course, if the bike thinks it's charging, it won't give you any power.

So what caused the failure? Can't be sure, but I'd washed the bike earlier, first time since the new charger was installed. It ran fine from the car wash home, but then wouldn't "start" later when I wanted to run to the local minimart. But I pushed and tweaked a few buttons and it did start, and got me there just fine...and then adamantly refused to take me home.

So I've owned the bike for 13 months and almost 12,000 miles now. First shop time that happened was when Zero took it back under recall and replaced the motor, which cost me nothing, unless you count the week's worth of driving the car instead of riding the bike...which is, in fact, a real expense. I figure I save about $20 per day riding the bike over driving the car, so a week out of action for the bike costs me around $100 in real costs.

Then the rear tire had to be replaced; of course that's normal maintenance.

But then the rear shock failed, which was a warranty repair, again costing me "nothing", by which I mean only the cost of driving the car to work for three days instead of saving money riding the bike.

Then the front tire and brake pads had to be replaced, of course normal maintenance again. If you don't expect normal expenses, you're an idiot.

But then one day, I went out to ride to work and the gauge still said 34%, which is what it had said the night before. Obviously it hadn't charged overnight. A warranty repair gave me a new, "free" charger, notwithstanding the $80 cost of towing the bike to the shop, and another week of driving my car to work. That's a $180 "free" warranty repair, by my accounting.

This evening, it failed again, for the first time actually leaving me stranded away from home. I suspect the new charger failed, though I don't have any proof (though I'm an EE and pretty good at this sort of diagnosis).

I really, really don't want to start hating this bike. I want to ride it, and continue loving it, and continue to have reason to love it. It's still a wicked hot rod, and actually still saves me a ton of money. But the inconvenience factor is mounting, and the expenses of having it not operate really reliably are starting to add up. I've always felt pretty smug about my purchase over my brother's Yamaha cruiser (Harley wannabe), which of course has much higher fuel and maintenance costs than my ride. Or does it? You can't pay for many tows with a couple of oil changes. You can replace a LOT of spark plugs for the cost of a week's downtime.

I know it still qualifies as an early model. I know I'm still an early adopter. But I also know that the primary arguments against the bike are range, recharging time and initial cost. I refute the first argument (range) by explaining that the bike meets my commuting needs and a fair amount beyond, so it meets 95% of my needs in spite of limited range. Recharging time isn't an issue for me; recharging overnight works just great, again for 95% of my needs. But the only argument against initial cost is saved costs over the life of the vehicle, and I'm beginning to lose that argument. If my bike breaks down a lot, and requires a lot of "free" $180 repairs, it's really not cashing in the lower running cost argument. So far...well, it seems to be breaking down a lot. Nobody would be impressed with my bike's reliability record.

I worry that it's only going get worse. A failed shock absorber is one thing, but it's a cheap Chinese unit, and it failed at 9000 miles. What are the odds that the new one is going to last significantly longer? If the charger's failed twice now, just a few weeks apart, can I trust it longterm? The signs aren't good. AND, of course, those $180 "free" warranty repairs aren't going to go on forever. When the bike is out of warranty, the full cost of any and all repairs will fall directly on you-know-who's shoulders.

I'm probably just disillusioned by a bad day. It's never good when your ride arrives home on a flatbed, and it doesn't make for warm fuzzy feelings. But so far, the Zero has spent far more time on a flatbed than any other vehicle I've ever owned, and it has a ways to go to make up any ground. I love my bike very, very much, but it's disappointing me too. I worry that the (REAL) costs per mile are still too high to defeat the initial cost argument, and that pretty much loses the whole argument.

The fact is, my brother's ICE bike requires some regular maintenance, but given those, it's astoundingly reliable. Any of us would be appalled by an ICE vehicle that required towing more than once in 10,000 miles -- or even once. In reality, if an ICE motorcycle required towing even once before 50,000 miles, I'd be very disappointed in it. It's a very high bar they've set, with the hundred years of development they've had, and so far, my Zero just isn't clearing it.
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firepower

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2015, 01:41:59 PM »

Having a repair / service Manual to help fault find and to be able to do post warranty repairs would give some assurance and confidence in Zero long term ownership.

please add your views to the topic.

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4457.0
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 01:43:36 PM by firepower »
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MotoRyder

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2015, 02:14:47 PM »

Just trying to be helpful and reduce those towing charges.
You might see about the 'AAA Plus RV' plan, which offers motorcycle towing.
Check it out on the website:
http://www.aaawa.com/membership/membership_types.asp?zip=98021&stateprov=wa&city=bothell&devicecd=PC

Towing is covered for up to 100 miles, I didn't see a limitation on the number of tows/year, the RV extends the benefits of AAA Plus membership to cover licensed motorhomes, pickup trucks with campers, travel trailers and motorcycles. Includes boat trailers, animal trailers, etc.  All of this for around $150 I think.

It adds piece-of-mind knowing that if something breaks down when you're away (even up to 100 miles away), the towing back to your place or to the shop is covered.  Also, check your insurance plan, I know that Safeco has a towing provision in their motorcycle policy.

Bummer about the feeling of loving your bike, but also not trusting it at the same time.
I've had that same feeling with an ICE moto of Italian heritage.
I kept it well maintained like you do yours, yet it has left me stranded more than a few times.

It'll be interesting to hear if the new charger failed again; two failures of new equipment certainly leaves doubts.
.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 02:22:27 PM by MotoRyder »
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dkw12002

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2015, 06:30:14 PM »

I don't think you can justify purchasing a Zero in terms of cost. If it was your only mode of transportation...maybe, but there are much cheaper, very capable bikes like the Ninja 300 for example and you would never make up the savings in fuel with the Zero ($5600 vs. $16,000). The break even point (for fuel) would be over 250,000 miles and neither bike will still be going at that point. 
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Burton

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2015, 06:40:11 PM »

I don't think you can justify purchasing a Zero in terms of cost. If it was your only mode of transportation...maybe, but there are much cheaper, very capable bikes like the Ninja 300 for example and you would never make up the savings in fuel with the Zero ($5600 vs. $16,000). The break even point (for fuel) would be over 250,000 miles and neither bike will still be going at that point. 

DKW12002,
Could you provide the formula you used to come up with those numbers? (EDIT) I just realized you said "fuel" break even point.

When I ran the numbers up against a 1500$ bike the maintenance cost was the biggest savings. That and time spent maintenancing the bikes . . . I would suggest looking at your maintenance schedule and the time it takes, or cost if you don't do your own work to have someone do it for you, on any ICE bike vs the electric and you will find if you ride 13k miles a year the electric will pay for itself in about 5 years.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 06:56:53 PM by Burton »
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roma258

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2015, 07:35:42 PM »

Just trying to be helpful and reduce those towing charges.
You might see about the 'AAA Plus RV' plan, which offers motorcycle towing.
Check it out on the website:
http://www.aaawa.com/membership/membership_types.asp?zip=98021&stateprov=wa&city=bothell&devicecd=PC

Towing is covered for up to 100 miles, I didn't see a limitation on the number of tows/year, the RV extends the benefits of AAA Plus membership to cover licensed motorhomes, pickup trucks with campers, travel trailers and motorcycles. Includes boat trailers, animal trailers, etc.  All of this for around $150 I think.

It adds piece-of-mind knowing that if something breaks down when you're away (even up to 100 miles away), the towing back to your place or to the shop is covered.  Also, check your insurance plan, I know that Safeco has a towing provision in their motorcycle policy.

Bummer about the feeling of loving your bike, but also not trusting it at the same time.
I've had that same feeling with an ICE moto of Italian heritage.
I kept it well maintained like you do yours, yet it has left me stranded more than a few times.

It'll be interesting to hear if the new charger failed again; two failures of new equipment certainly leaves doubts.
.
Seconded on AAA RV Plus, great investment, especially with an electric bike. I've gotta assume you're dealing with some of the teething issues that come from having a first year model (I know that SR is based on the S, but I'm guessing there's enough unique components to count as a separate model). As far as costs, I'm not sure comparing it to a Ninja 300 is fair, as it blows away the Ninja in performance. A more equivalent bike would be maybe a Triumph Street Triple or Honda CB1000R. Suddenly, the difference is not so huge. Btw, when the warranty work was done on the shock, was there an option of installing the up-spec 2015 shock, or not really?
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Doug S

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2015, 08:30:04 PM »

Btw, when the warranty work was done on the shock, was there an option of installing the up-spec 2015 shock, or not really?

Nope. I asked the dealer if the 2015 would fit, he relayed my question to corporate, and the answer came back that it won't. No thoughts on a higher quality replacement part, either.

Regarding operating costs, I'm not trying to construct a purely cost-based reason for buying the bike, I'm simply trying to refute the contention that electric bikes are strictly rich peoples' playthings at this point. I want to make the case that electrics may not QUITE be the vehicles of today, but they're the vehicles of the very near future, as opposed to decades from now. And I'm with Burton that maintenance is the ugly stepchild of the ICE vehicle that nobody wants to talk about, but which has a very real impact if properly taken into account.

But I'm beginning to wonder how much of an advantage we really do enjoy in terms of operating costs.
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Burton

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2015, 08:38:13 PM »

Roma the SR just has a higher temperature motor (aka better glue) and a size six controller. Rest of the bike is the same.

I would add to there are SR's which predate the 2014 official releases ... I own one of these 2013 race proven beasts ;)
You also have people who have a FXR already as well as DSR's

If you start comparing small ninja bikes to the zeros you will find after you have to replace the motor on the ninja the zero is still running and has paid for itself based off the calculations I have run. I you compare it to a larger bike as Roma suggested then the savings comes much faster.

Maintenance is the most costly thing to a motorcycle rider who takes car of their rides. If a dealer does it you are looking at 90/hr on average. If you do it yourself you are spending your free time, which isn't free, doing the work. I have 46k miles on my ninja 250 and I did all the maintenance on the bike as required myself and know first hand how long things can take to maintain.
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Cortezdtv

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2015, 08:49:04 PM »

Roma the SR just has a higher temperature motor (aka better glue) and a size six controller. Rest of the bike is the same.

I would add to there are SR's which predate the 2014 official releases ... I own one of these 2013 race proven beasts ;)
You also have people who have a FXS already as well as DSR's

If you start comparing small ninja bikes to the zeros you will find after you have to replace the motor on the ninja the zero is still running and has paid for itself based off the calculations I have run. I you compare it to a larger bike as Roma suggested then the savings comes much faster.

Maintenance is the most costly thing to a motorcycle rider who takes car of their rides. If a dealer does it you are looking at 90/hr on average. If you do it yourself you are spending your free time, which isn't free, doing the work. I have 46k miles on my ninja 250 and I did all the maintenance on the bike as required myself and know first hand how long things can take to maintain.


Edited for you

The FXR doesn't exist, well kinda....FXS is the mortard coming soon; we dubbed mine a "r" "cuz if your not first your last"  ;D
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CrashCash

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2015, 09:00:56 PM »

Another option for towing is the AMA "MoTow" service that you get as a member. They towed my dead SR from home to the dealer for free. One tow of 35 miles or less per seven days.

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/membership/amaroadsideassistance
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Richard230

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2015, 09:23:11 PM »

Another option for towing is the AMA "MoTow" service that you get as a member. They towed my dead SR from home to the dealer for free. One tow of 35 miles or less per seven days.

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/membership/amaroadsideassistance

That is what I have.  But fortunately have not needed to use the towing service for any of my electric motorcycles. (All either being pretty reliable - or at least having the decency to expire in my garage.)  The only time I needed it was when my Aprilia RS50 blew up.   :o
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Burton

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2015, 10:14:44 PM »

Edited for you

The FXR doesn't exist, well kinda....FXS is the mortard coming soon; we dubbed mine a "r" "cuz if your not first your last"  ;D

I thought any Zero bike hot-rodded to have the size 6 controller got the "R" on it ;)
Maybe we should use an "x" instead since were the experimental bikes. So I could say I have a 2013 Sx and you could say you have an FXx ... idk, I just know we came first and there are a couple of bikes like mine which are still racing.

With the advent of a "real" SR model though I suspect many of the electric racers will adopt the newer models ... for those racing stock bikes.
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2015, 10:45:02 PM »

Also there is the longevity of little engines, my experience of sub 250cc engines is usually around 50k+ miles they tend to start drastically falling apart, and require either a major overhaul, or scrapping and replacing.
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Worksoptony

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2015, 11:17:11 PM »

I'm hoping that the majority of bikes, of all ages, are still working fine. One of the positive points of Electric Bikes over ICE bikes is the simplicity of the set up and thus good reliability. But we have all taken a leap of faith in purchasing these bikes, at some expense. I hope zero don't let us down, by not looking at such issue's and the affect it has on the brand name. Once one of the big Japanese manufacturers joins the game, which I'm sure they will at some point, then Zero will be lost, if they haven't already cornered the market with proven ultra reliable bikes.
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Cortezdtv

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Re: Trouble in paradise
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2015, 01:18:56 AM »

Edited for you

The FXR doesn't exist, well kinda....FXS is the mortard coming soon; we dubbed mine a "r" "cuz if your not first your last"  ;D

I thought any Zero bike hot-rodded to have the size 6 controller got the "R" on it ;)
Maybe we should use an "x" instead since were the experimental bikes. So I could say I have a 2013 Sx and you could say you have an FXx ... idk, I just know we came first and there are a couple of bikes like mine which are still racing.

With the advent of a "real" SR model though I suspect many of the electric racers will adopt the newer models ... for those racing stock bikes.

You were the prototype/s

I'm just a garage experiment; you don't have to worry about hurting batteries hence why the sr is now here to stay rather than just a s race bike   Mine mod will never be produced until batteries are monsters, they are close but not strong enough. 14 bricks will be better because of the contractor vs the fet board so they will last much longer than the average fet on my batteries

Or we could use the FX m for modified.    And my last name is Magranet so I could be satisfied  8)

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