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[CrashCash]

My FJR manual is pretty damn hefty. The stack of loose pages between the big Chilton's and the Honda CSM are the xeroxed factory manual for my '85 Yamaha RZ-350. This is only one shelf. I have a couple more shelves.

[CrashCash]

I've NEVER been able to get hold of a service manual legitimately, not for any Kawasaki, Honda or Suzuki I've owned, on the few occasions I've asked the manufactorer (or dealer) I been polietly told to **** off, dealers have that sort of thing wrapped up.

Yeah, I used to have the same problem, but now I simply insist on buying the manual and don't take any shit about it. I buy all my stuff online nowadays from ronayers.com and other places because the local parts-monkeys are morons.

I guess that's why I'm arguing this. Not only do I know the "we don't do service manuals" line is complete horseshit, but it's a line of BS people have tried to feed me for many years.

[Richard230]

I have very nice original factory (paper) service manuals for my Triumph and my Yamaha.  My daughter has factory manuals for her Suzuki SV650 and her 1986 Honda VFR700FII.  I have excellent factory ($100) DVD service manuals for both of my BMWs, which I purchased over the counter from my dealer's BMW parts department.  However, a couple of years ago, BMW in the U.S. stopped selling their factory service manual DVDs over the counter to the public.  I gather that some dealers were complaining that selling the manuals to their customers was cutting into their very lucrative service department business (when their customers would perform service and repairs themselves) and requested that further sales of the manuals be discontinued. However, Chilton and Clymer still publish paper service manuals for BMW (and most other motorcycles) models, but only for non-current models (like my F650GS).   

[peter]

I've got an original owner's manual for my 1981 Moto Morini 500. It includes little details like the acceptable amount of play in the crank pin, and "checking play in the main bushing". And other things like checking engine timing and how to replace the timing belt. The factory service manual (that I've also got, original paper and a pdf) obviously goes into a lot more detail.

I've also got a Laverda 750 owner's manual that has a complete parts list in it - of the entire bike. The service details in the manual are broken down into "operations that do not require removal of the engine from the frame" and  "operations that require the removal of the engine from the frame". And  a complete set of "allowances for specific parts or components" - which has all the acceptable levels of play in it.  Then there's the Laverda Green Book, with everything else.

All have wiring diagrams too.

We've come a long way, haven't we.
Peter

[Richard230]

My 1960 Sears Allstate (Puch) 125cc motorcycle was delivered with similar documentation.  Everything you needed to set up, repair, service and order parts for the bike was included in the manuals delivered with the motorcycle when you bought it through the Sears Roebuck Catalog.   

[MotoRyder]

For anything on the level of complexity as an electric motorcycle or scooter, a technical assembly manual of some form has to be in existence. 

Engineering needs to properly document their designs for internal things such as design reviews, and sufficient instructions are necessary for properly assembling the mechanical and/or electrical assemblies. 
As part of the manufacturing process, there also needs to be 'acceptance test' procedures and passing criteria. 
Documentation is one of the main functions of the product design team, otherwise the products would not be able to be efficiently manufactured. 

So as mentioned by many others, it's more of an impediment for adept mechanics/technicians to be able to autonomously work on their own machines.  It's not that a factory repair manual is in existence or not. A manual is not available as a deterrent for technical-types to actually know about the technical aspects and operation of the machines.  In My Opinion (IMO) for the market segment that is attracted to new technology (like those of us on the forum), that is not a very customer-friendly policy. 

[MotoRyder]

As for the liability issue in doing repairs...that issue has been around since the dawn of the mechanical/industrial revolution.

The equipment for the time at each stage of the industrial evolution was complex (for that time-frame) and performing some work on the machines presented the possibility of injury or death.  If liability could be placed on the manufacturer for providing proper information on maintenance and repair, then this would exist for all the other equipment in our modern lives as well. 

I am of the belief that it's more of a stance by management thinking that the electrical architecture and implementation of their electric motorcycles is quite different than what most people are accustomed to in terms of knowing what to do to work on them. 

So they limit the information thinking that people aren't capable of working on the machines, and that all the work needs to be performed by 'certified' mechanics...which we know on this forum, often leaves the riders wanting as the bike sits in some dealer's shop.

[firepower]

I agree for such a expensive device, repair manual is needed. Everyone knows their abilities and will work within their limits or ask for help and learn more skills.
Most of the advance electrical parts will be treated as black boxes, leave them alone or replace as a unit. But knowing how they are wired helps.

Even Burton had to reverse engineer his own wiring diagram because he could not get one from Zero, even though they exist, as trikster has one but has a NDA stopping him from sharing it. Burton Wiring Diagram is freely available , so this proves that the information can be shared and used. Its just disappointing that users have to go to these extreme steps to get the info.

[Christian Frankl]

Hopefully someone of Zero´s staff reads this thread here....

[firepower]

When I created thread I PM aaronzeromoto to notify him i asked him a question about repair manuals in the thread.
No response as yet.

I am also going to raise this issue in the FaceBook  Zero Owners Group.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/

[lolachampcar]

Tesla has done the very same thing.  They were forced to put a subscription based version of their manual up to comply with the Mass. right to repair law but otherwise staunchly refuses to provide documentation on their product.

In addition to the liability issue, I suspect there are issues of warranty.  I'm sure there are those (a lot on this forum and you know who you are ) that will take knowledge from the manual to increase performance.  Zero is likely holding off to delay those efforts as well.

Lastly, someone will shock themselves.  A previous poster mentioned the contactor.  Yep, that is the big clicky thing that isolates the 100V battery from the speed controller as a safety.  By definition, you will be playing with the live 100 Vdc side of things when you go to work on that bit.  What Zero needs to take into account is there has always been the set of "mechanics" that manage to light their car/bike on fire by not handling gas correctly.  You can not protect people from themselves.  We just need a legal system that holds people accountable for their actions so that companies like Zero and Tesla can do the right thing by the majority of responsible customers.

Rant over.....  Sorry for jumping on my milk crate.

[ctrlburn]

Bridging Cycles to the Technical aspects of documentation expectations, apt in the Zero forum as the Zero is as much an electronic device as it is a mechanical device.

I still have at my desk what I still consider as my gold standard for service documentation.
It is the Tandy 1000 Technical Reference Manual.
Pin outs of every chip with wave forms and schematics of every component from the Intel 8088 Chip to the RS-232 subsystem.
Attached is a shared sample, and "No" one is not page 4077 - just a small 3 ring binder in a box.

I never (ever even came close) to adjusting the track 00 sensor on a floppy drive, but the manual covered it.

Competitive edge lost? Runaway warranty issues? Liability?

Sure - Tandy is financially in the dumps now but 3 decades ago these services manuals did not hamper them at all and certainly helped launch my career.

[jheth]

News flash: Zero doesn't want self-educated EV mechanics mucking with their bikes. I can't say that I blame them.

I understand, appreciate and encourage Zero owners to learn everything they can about their bikes, but they can't fault Zero for not publishing an official service manual. How many motorcycle manufacturers publish service manuals? My experience (correct me if I'm wrong) is that service manuals are created and released exclusively by 3rd parties, not the manufacturers. These 3rd parties reverse engineer the vehicle by taking it apart and putting it back together (similar to what many forum members here have done). If there's a business market for such a publication, then they document it and sell it. The manufacturer does not get involved in this process in any way. If other vehicle manufacturers have published service manuals, good for them. It seems that Zero has chosen not to, for the reasons I explain below (and probably more).

Of course the manufacturer has service manuals, Zero included. They need to diagnose failures on the manufacturing line, and provide training/documentation to their dealership network. Do they want to publish these manuals to the general public? NO! Should we fault or blame them for this? NO! That would create an incredible headache for them while they are trying to grow/expand, with very little (probably no) benefit. Some owners would inevitably cause issues with their bikes while trying to improve it. Some might even get hurt. Modifying an electric vehicle with a high voltage battery pack isn't the same as opening a personal computer, or even take an ICE engine apart. Way different.

Ultimately, the reasoning for wanting such service manuals falls into two categories:
1. Owners want to modify their bike.
2. Owners want to fix their bike themselves (and not have it done by a dealer).

For #1, the owners should acknowledge that Zero supports some modifications... using parts and processes that they have designed, tested and/or qualified (ie. stuff they sell on their website). All other modifications introduce unknown variables into their product.

Again, I understand why people want to modify their bikes. It's human nature to tinker and make things better. But Zero put a LOT of thought and effort into the design. They have pride and responsibility in their design. They also have IP to protect, which a service manual can compromise. More importantly, Zero's current efforts are focused on building and shipping high quality electric motorcycles, while trying to expand their dealer network. They are up to their eyeballs working on that stuff, so don't be surprised if you get no response when you aggressively ask for service manuals, or any other documentation that gives you a sneak peak into their product design.

I hope this post helps stop the mob-mentality that Zero owes us service manuals. They don't owe them to us, and if owners want to modify/repair the product in their garage, they do so using their own knowledge (+ Internet forums) and at their own risk.

If you disagree with this, feel free to give Richard Walker a call and tell him why Zero should change their policy  :-)

[Richard230]

In my experience, as mentioned in a previous post, all of the Japanese brands will provide a factory service manual to their customers.  All you have to do is pay over $100 for the manual.  BMW used to do the same, but have stopped selling their official service manual DVDs in U.S. markets recently, although there are apparently some pirated copies available from the usual sources (eBay and the like).

However, I don't fault Zero for not providing a factory service manual over-the-counter to their customers, because I can understand why they would not want to do this. However, it still would be appreciated if they included some additional information regarding servicing and performing minor repairs to the chassis components in the owner's manual that comes with their bikes. But then I come from a background where you had to work on your own bike if you wanted to keep it running and not have it die by the side of the road on a trip.   

[CrashCash]

News flash: Zero doesn't want self-educated EV mechanics mucking with their bikes. I can't say that I blame them.

I hope this post helps stop the mob-mentality that Zero owes us service manuals. They don't owe them to us, and if owners want to modify/repair the product in their garage, they do so using their own knowledge (+ Internet forums) and at their own risk.

Sorry, that doesn't wash. For a $20K piece of personal transportation, I deserve the opportunity to buy a service manual.

I've been giving Zero a break because they're very small and a FSM is a large task, plus their product has changed drastically every year, so it's a moving target.

I didn't buy an Aprilia because they wouldn't give me the ability to change the transmission belt when it wore out. I wouldn't buy a BMW without a service manual, and I'm really sorry I bought a Zero now.

I'm going to be warning anybody that asks about my electric bike not to buy one.

They're not yet real bikes, they're still toys.