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[steven_first]

After reading this and hearing about the BMS boards I would like to see if someone has one good or bad (preferably bad) that they would be willing to send me.  I can look at it and see what the mode of failure is and maybe come up with a fix.  Alternatively some high quality pictures would go a long way as well.     

[Doug S]

And just like that, the last bit of sympathy I had for you just evaporated.

It occurs to me that a little bit of civility, especially on a forum like this one, can go a long ways. Exuberant enthusiasm often doesn't come across very well online, and sarcasm is almost always missed. There's no tone of voice or body motions to convey those kinds of subtleties. Earlier I pretty much got called an idiot for expecting to be able to hose-wash my bike, but I don't take offense -- even if the person seriously thinks I'm an idiot for wanting to be able to wash my bike conventionally, that's his problem, not mine. But more likely, he's just trying to make a point, and it doesn't come across very well in this strictly written medium.

Try to relax and contribute in a constructive, helpful way. We're all here as early adopters to help advance the field wherever we can.

[steven_first]

To be honest if I was in this situation I would call every day.  Is it annoying?  Yes.  Is it impolite?  Maybe.  Does it get results?  Yes.  I have found over the years that if you do not keep a constant pressure on a company to help you they will just be helping the guy who IS screaming at them the loudest.  "Squeaky wheel gets the grease" is VERY true.  You did not buy this thing so it could sit in someones garage while some guy pokes at it with a stick and sometimes you need to remind them of that.  Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty on these matters!  Can't get results from the dealer?  Call Zero and politely demand to know what is being done.  If they don't know then find someone who does know. Parts are being shipped to the dealer?   Great, what is the tracking number?  Don't have one?  Why not; get me one.  Make them work for their 17,000 dollars of your money.

[Richard230]

Only slightly off of the subject:, I was bemused when last year I read Consumer Reports article describing the results of their survey of over 4000 motorcycle owners.  They discovered that 75% of Harley and BMW owners had experienced problems with their motorcycles, compared with something like 10% for the Japanese brands (Yamaha having the fewest problems) and were generally unsatisfied with the build quality of their bikes.  However, almost all of these BMW and H-D owners loved their bikes and would buy another one again.  All of which goes to show you that building a perfectly running and reliable motorcycle does not necessarily increase sales, customer loyalty, or profits.    Go figure!

Sometimes I get the impression that humans are not quite ready for the modern world.     (I know that I am not.)   

[steven_first]

Maybe Zero knew that making a completely reliable motorcycle would make it boring.  How fun would a day be without a good breakdown in the rain?

[teddillard]

... I pretty much got called an idiot for expecting to be able to hose-wash my bike...

I didn't call you an idiot.  "Not using common sense" and "having unrealistic expectations" was more or less how I described your post. If you equate that to being called an idiot, that's not my "problem".

Try to relax and contribute in a constructive, helpful way. We're all here as early adopters to help advance the field wherever we can.

Good advice.  I'd suggest "being open to the viewpoints of more than a few people with considerable experience" is a good place to start for "civility". 

As far as an example of someone with considerable experience, please note Richard's comment above, for some sense of reality for your expectations.  God forbid a cutting edge, in-development, hand-built product shouldn't live up to the expectations of the entitled consumer, though.  (That was sarcasm, can you tell? Or was it Irony?  If you have to tell someone you're being ironic, is it still ironic?   )

[CrashCash]

42 days (6 weeks) since I ordered my replacement mirrors.

25 days since my SR was towed in, so it's been in the shop 1/3rd of the time I've had it. At least it's got company there with 5 other dead Zeros...

Except for an ECU recall on my FJR, none of my Japanese bikes have been in the shop since 1986, and the ECU swap took 5 minutes because I removed all the bodywork & stuff in the way before driving it over.

[CrashCash]

Hey, I could ride the SR up to Sanford for good German food... oh wait, no, it's still in the shop.

[firepower]

Ideally time spent in dealer work shop or waiting for parts underwarranty, should be added to your warranty period.
if it takes 2 months to repair then 2 months should be added to your warranty.

[CrashCash]

Now 58 days, so it's been in the shop longer than it's been on the road.

The shop manager complains how often he's called Zero and no one ever calls him back.

[teddillard]

If it were me, this just kicked into the "bullshit" level.  Or, to quote that old comment: "What we have here is a failure to communicate". 

My immediate reaction is your dealer has pushed this to the back of the shop and doesn't want to deal with it, but that's just my gut feeling on it.  In any case, I can't imagine that Zero, at the corporate level, would want this kind of lack of customer service to go unaddressed. 

I've dealt with a few instances of this kind of thing before, and actually been thanked by the companies involved.  Here's how I approached it. 

First, in your communication, remember my Dad's advice: Always write an angry letter so that they have to read it twice, or maybe three times, before they really understand how pissed off you are.    Second, write actual letters, on paper.  Send them via a service that requires a signature - Express Mail or FedEx works fine, but Certified Mail is good too. 

Write the letter to the highest-up Zero guy you can find the name of.  I believe there is a VP of Customer Service who was just anointed to the post a few months ago, but I'd have to check.  CC the owner of the shop at your local dealer - if it's a small shop, that's easy, if it's a bigger company that owns a bunch of local shops like we have here in Boston, it's harder to get a name.  And finally, and most important, CC your state's Attorney General's Dept of Consumer Affairs, and if necessary, open a case.  If you have a friend who's an attorney, CC them too.  No comments necessary in the text, just show the CCs at the bottom of the letter.

Feel free to PM me for coaching on this if you have questions.  I'd even write the letter for you, it's good anger management therapy. 

The letter needs to state, clearly and professionally, when you bought the bike, the steps you've taken to get it fixed, the communications you've had, the degree to which you're displeased, the remedies you'd consider acceptable, and the steps you'll take if the situation is not addressed.  I'd consult your state's "Lemon Law" if you have one, too.  Imagine yourself not you, but your lawyer writing this for you.  It helps manage the tone. 

The first time I did this it was purely to get the whole thing off my chest.  I just was so pissed off I had to do something, and get someone's attention, for some stuff that the dealer did that was just off-the-hook BS.  I got a phone call from the VP of the company whose product it was - the guy I cc'd.  They replaced the product, and refunded the purchase price too.  (This was a $2k product) And this was before the internet.    It took me about an hour to write the letter, find the addresses and copy and mail it. 

You may have a dealer who's slacking, you may have a sticky issue, you may have service techs at Zero who are slacking, but I'm pretty certain that if the VPs find out about it, and that you're talking about it online, they're going to fix it. 

(edit: I remember now what the manufacturer's VP told me on the phone.  "I really appreciate you bringing this to my attention.  Whenever we talk to our dealers, or visit them, they never tell us about this stuff.  Everything always sounds perfect."

I'm pretty sure the comment about "unicorns and rainbows" that I recall may be my own memory's embellishment.    )

[Richard230]

Good advice, Ted.  My daughter is the sole customer complaint department in a small company that sells stainless (Chinese  ) steel lunchboxes.  She spends a lot of time trying to sort out complaints and gives out a lot of new products for free to replace the defective ones, without asking for anything in return. With few exceptions, the customer is always right and it is a lot easier to make them happy than to have to spend the time to deal with an unhappy customer. (Don't forget, time costs money.) Plus, what with the internet, an unhappy customer can loose a lot of potential sales for your business. 

So happy customers are better for business than unhappy customers.  There is no reason for any company to not at least try to correct problems if they want to continue to stay in business.  And if they can't resolve the issue immediately, the customer should always stay in the loop and be informed exactly what they are doing to correct the problem and when they will contact them again.  It is only common courtesy.

[CrashCash]

OMFG. My dealer actually called me instead of my weekly trip in for a status update. I'm in shock.

So to recap, the 1st thing Zero did was "needs new BMS board & firmware updates" however that didn't help. And was a while ago.

The voicemail from the service manager said his tech was on the phone with Zero for about 4 hours, and apparently they've found a bad wiring harness - a replacement for which is now on order.

Progress!

Actually, I realized this has a lot of parallels with the small computer hardware companies I've worked at. One made hardened CDROM drive enclosures when CDROMS were $350 instead of $20, and another made graphics cards for SUN workstations.

Their "tech support" was whichever engineers got roped in on the hot seat for the week. The engineers hated it and the customers hated it, and they got the exact same complaints we've made about Zero. They finally established bona-fide tech support departments staffed with patient blokes that didn't really mind the same stupid questions day in and day out, and were diligent at following up on issues. Customers were much happier.

I expect with Zero's double sales last year, they're struggling though the same transition (or should be)

[teddillard]

Cool. 

And yes it does.  Phone tech support is really hard to do well.  You almost never want an engineer doing it, due respect to the engineers out there (I come from a long line of engineers, so I get to say that). It was part of my job for several years, as a dealer, and I was talking to people I'd sold product to, so often knew pretty well.  (I realized I had an almost photographic visual memory of menu trees as a result of that.  )  The guys who were good at it at the manufacturer were amazing, but they almost never spoke to the client, that was our job. 

And I think you're dead nuts on.  I know for a fact that "department" has been in flux (pardon the pun) at Zero, and it seems like it's possibly the last priority for tech start-ups, to set up customer service.  I honestly think that in the mind of a startup engineer, their stuff breaking, or flawed, and fixing it is something they don't want to think about, so until the company gets to a certain maturity, they just don't.

...which is part of the reason I suggested the steps I did.  Management needs to know, at a very personal level, and then the problem (with the company, not your bike) gets fixed.  And again, you're dead nuts on - the company, and the owners will be in a world of hurt if they don't do better soon.   

I had the misfortune of trying to help a friend with, lets loosely call it an EV, a product that was funded on Kickstarter.  They were so busy trying to build the things they had no idea what to do (and no resources set aside to do it) when customers needed help.  One phone call to the "head of engineering", a few emailed photos and ten minutes later and I was able to get the thing running again.  This was after a month of BS.

[m0t0-ryder]

Ted speaks wisely of the need for skilled Technical Support.
He's also spot on with his comment about start up companies not putting enough emphasis in developing and staffing a competent support division.
For whatever (odd) reason management decisions seem to be made that put more resources into R&D and fewer resources into actually supporting the customers who are confronted with issues. Somewhat understandable for a startup but, IMO, still flawed logic.
Customer Satisfaction is everything. If product issues aren't addressed quickly and decisively you get irate customers. And in this day and age of fast internet communication the word gets out.

Coming from 25+ years of technical support (telecom and IT/Cisco systems) I know well that keeping the customers happy, the product working and providing feedback back to engineering on the issues is a very critical role for any/every company.

The most difficult functions of CS are learning tact to handle displeased customers, knowing the product enough to quickly troubleshoot the problem and providing constant feedback to the customers (and engineering) about the status of the issues.
Communication really is key. I've handled many problems that took a long time to isolate and resolve. For the most part everyone stayed calm as long as regular status updates were provided.

Being a stockholder in Zero I truly do hope they work diligently on improving their Customer Support Team. I believe this will only happen if more resources are provided to grow the CS Team in both technical expertise as well as head count.