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Author Topic: Zero 2016  (Read 12945 times)

zap mc

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2015, 06:03:44 PM »

I disagree with Protomech on the higher voltage improvement as Abe said in the interview once you get over 100v an accident could kill someone. Knowing that we are all a community of tinkerers it will not be long before a bad accident happens and zero get sued.
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Erasmo

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2015, 10:13:32 PM »

Those legal issues are probably already hammered down, since 50V can also be deadly.
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camosoul

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2015, 05:44:26 AM »

Amperage kills. Voltage does nothing. I've had over 50,000 V applied to me, pass through me, and exit; at under 1 microamp. Only made my hair stand up.

Secondly, Amperage experiences resistance loss, Voltage does not. High Voltage == more efficient. Even those with the most remedial grasp of electronics knows this.

Ohm's Law explains both, and it's first-year, first-week material. T disagree with this fundamental reality out loud is to remove one's self from the real of being taken seriously.

All the Zero S really needs is a charger that doesn't suck. Why they haven't designed the motor controller to double as such is a bit confusing... It regen brakes, doesn't it? Most of the work is already done. No need for two separate pieces of hardware. DCQC is entirely off board anyway, and they had to ditch it because CHADEMO standards aren't standards...

They should talk to Tesla. See if the Superchargers can be asked pump lower voltage. Or just get with reality and use higher voltage in the Zero. Even in DIY electrics, we know this talk about higher voltage being more heat, more loss, etc, is the opposite of the truth. Even children know this...
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Doug S

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2015, 09:41:04 AM »

camosoul, you should be careful speaking in absolutes like that. They say that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, and it sounds like you're squarely in that zone.

It's true that current is what's dangerous, but without voltage, you can't generate any current. (Btw, the terms "amperage" and "condensor" were deprecated for "current" and "capacitor" decades ago.) That's like saying it's water flow that puts out a fire, not pressure....it's true as far as it goes, but without pressure, you'll never get the water to flow.

There are also a lot of other variables. A current of 5mA directly through your heart can be enough to stop it, but getting 5mA directly through your heart can be done many different ways. Applying a high voltage from one foot to another (which may happen if you're standing on the ground when a lightning bolt strikes nearby) isn't likely to get much current through your chest area, since it'll follow the shortest path through your legs, whereas applying significantly less voltage from one hand to the other may be much more likely to get a fatal amount of current through your chest. And a tesla coil is extremely unlikely to ever cause any damage in spite of high voltage, both because the current is low and the frequency is very high, which causes the current to flow almost entirely through your skin, never penetrating very deeply into your body (look up "skin effect" in wikipedia).

Okay, you may have stuck your hand in a tesla coil, and yes, it's quite amazing to see the lightning striking you and not causing any effect, not even any discomfort. Van de Graff generators are also very cool, as long as you don't step off the insulated stool. But DO NOT stick your fingers in a 220V socket, you really aren't going to like what happens if you do.
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dkw12002

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2015, 09:42:39 PM »

I really hope they make the SR even faster with a 0 to 60 of under 3 seconds. That would pretty much force me to buy one. I sat on an SR yesterday and while the seat is noticeably taller and the weight more than my 2013 8.5 S, both negatives for me, it's still OK. I really hope Zero doesn't make their SR heavier for 2016. No offense to those who want to take long trips on the Zeros, but first lets get the bike doing what it is capable of doing right now with some changes, namely accelerate very fast.
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domingo3

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2015, 10:31:12 PM »

I really hope they make the SR even faster with a 0 to 60 of under 3 seconds. That would pretty much force me to buy one. I sat on an SR yesterday and while the seat is noticeably taller and the weight more than my 2013 8.5 S, both negatives for me, it's still OK. I really hope Zero doesn't make their SR heavier for 2016. No offense to those who want to take long trips on the Zeros, but first lets get the bike doing what it is capable of doing right now with some changes, namely accelerate very fast.

Just curious, have you test ridden an SR?  It's 0-60 feels much faster than an ICE bike.  I think it's because you don't have to abuse it to get that acceleration like you do with an ICE bike.  I'm not saying I would complain about being even faster, but that's not my primary concern.  I'd like more range and better charging options.  I agree with you that I don't want it any heavier.  Lots of people are interested in a fairing, but if they put one on, I'll be buying last year's model.
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2016 Zero FXS 2018 Zero FXS 2016 SR

BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2015, 01:28:43 AM »

I really hope they make the SR even faster with a 0 to 60 of under 3 seconds. That would pretty much force me to buy one. I sat on an SR yesterday and while the seat is noticeably taller and the weight more than my 2013 8.5 S, both negatives for me, it's still OK. I really hope Zero doesn't make their SR heavier for 2016. No offense to those who want to take long trips on the Zeros, but first lets get the bike doing what it is capable of doing right now with some changes, namely accelerate very fast.

Just curious, have you test ridden an SR?  It's 0-60 feels much faster than an ICE bike.  I think it's because you don't have to abuse it to get that acceleration like you do with an ICE bike.  I'm not saying I would complain about being even faster, but that's not my primary concern.


From a test ride, I concur that the torque is so hugely accessible that I wonder who really needs to go faster than that and isn't willing to customize the bike via gearing, etc.

I'd like more range and better charging options.  I agree with you that I don't want it any heavier.  Lots of people are interested in a fairing, but if they put one on, I'll be buying last year's model.

I'd bet that any touring/range allowances will be optional or at most will bifurcate from the standard model line, and they'll continue to push down the price on that line to nail the commuter market. I think it's pretty clear right now that we're only getting a DSR in terms of new models for 2016, so at best the OEM option will be a fairing add-on.

Personally, I'm getting a little itchy to build an electric touring bike by hook or crook. I think this is too esoteric territory to impact Zero's decisions, still. :)
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Current: 2020 DSR, 2012 Suzuki V-Strom
Former: 2016 DSR, 2013 DS

Francois

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2015, 07:20:53 PM »

Some precision on the 2016 model, new battery over 105 volt, new motor?
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steven_first

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2015, 08:10:16 PM »

It seems funny to me that voltage is what everyone is looking for considering that there is no need to increase voltage.  The only reasons I can see to increase voltage is to lower overall current usage and to be able to use thinner gauge wires.  Yes there are other benefits to voltage vs current but there is little to nothing preventing just pushing more current at the relatively safe 100v pack voltage.  At 100 volts if someone were to managed to get shocked it is not likely to kill or even do real damage under normal conditions (didn't just get done talking a bath in salt water) and that is a good thing.  My bike (FX) has a 420 amp controller and if you look at the specs, they do make a 150v model but it has less current rating so it ends up being the same power output and your efficiency gain is negligible. On top of that you would need to redesign the ENTIRE power system from the ground up.  On top of that as you add batteries in series you are increasing the voltage "drop" that will be experienced as SOC changes with less cells in parallel and using current for your "power" you will experience better voltage stability.
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Erasmo

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2015, 09:16:49 PM »

It would allow for faster charging but that's about it.

Some precision on the 2016 model, new battery over 105 volt, new motor?

No news on the Western front afaik.
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Francois

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2015, 02:18:54 PM »

on the SR we have temperature isue, one off the solution to state at the same power and improve the temperature probleme is to increase the voltage to be able to decrease the amperage.
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steven_first

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2015, 09:42:25 PM »

While that is true that you could fix temp issues by pushing less current and more voltage, it would be even more easy to just add larger cooling fins to the motor or allow for better airflow over the motor.  I just don't see Zero going to any higher voltage any time soon given the general good setup of the cell layout that they have now.  I guess adding one more cell wouldn't be an issue but once you go too high with the nominal voltage you have to then start looking at different controllers and programming goes out the window.  From what I understand about the SR overheat "issue" is that is is solvable with some air flow to the motor.  Remember that any changes Zero makes in 2016 17 etc will have no effect on the bike you have now! 
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ultrarnr

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2015, 09:47:46 PM »

Part of the temperature problems on the SR are related to the temperature sensor itself being bad. Try turning your SR on first thing in the morning after it has been sitting all night. Go look at the motor temp. Mine is always about 15 degrees warmer than my garage is.
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Erasmo

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2015, 12:44:29 AM »

I cobbled together a simple chart what would happen if Zero made the same improvements from as in the last model year:



Source bike: S with power tank.
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Ron Sindric

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2015, 06:29:00 PM »

I will probably stay with my 2014 S zf11.4 untilI can get a reasonablyt priced ZERO that has a range of at least 250 miles.  Speaking of changes, I would like to see:

     louder pizeo horn
     
     LED bulbs all around
     
     self-cancelling turn signals
   
     travel trunk with a built in quick charger
     
     hybrid frame-mount fairing that has a single "bottom" and two different "top" sections one     
     for touring and one for cafe racing
     
     hot-swapable battery chargers for 120 - 240 50 / 60 Hz, ChaDeMo, and SAE L2/L3

     garage-top solar panel array trickle charger

     "black box" to allow me to off-load not only bike diags, but ALL data from a ride
     including ride conditions, gps,  digi-cam images ( cam mounted in dash )

     side panels and fairing covered with electroluminescent panels to enhance
     bike visibility to others on the road at night

     FLASH-ROM function upgrade-able DASH

     side-car w/ provision to hold a reeeeeeally large POWER-TANK

     rear-view cam and collision avoidance "radar" system

     hot swap-able batteries built to a universal standard compatible with other e-vehicles
     ( bikes, cars, private aircraft, PWC's, etc . )

     24 / 7 / 365 TECH SUPPORT

     customer loyalty / trade-in program for people wishing to get a newer ZERO
     in exchange for their older ZERO


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VoltRON ;-}
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