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Author Topic: Zero 2016  (Read 12948 times)

DynoMutt

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2015, 07:04:45 PM »

I guess the best we can hope for is to hold onto something like the 2014 SR for long enough for it to be considered to be a piece of history.

Kind of like an Apple I. (Yes, I'm being grossly overly optimistic.)
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Richard230

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2015, 08:59:14 PM »

Thinking about this subject last night it occurred to me that whatever we say or think will likely have no immediate impact on the next year's design.  I recalled speaking with Richard Walker in 2012 and he mentioned that they were already designing the 2015 models. So my guess is that the 2016 bikes have already been designed and Zero is likely currently searching for equipment and parts suppliers and working on running preproduction prototypes.  Right now they are probably starting to design the 2018 models. 
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

trikester

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2015, 10:04:03 PM »

Quote
I've sold two Zeros now and I can attest that he secondary market stinks :)  I now price at 1/2 new when I update.

Yes, I have a very low mileage (under 1K mi) 2012 DS ZF6, with HID headlamp upgrade, for sale @ $6K. So far no takers.

Trikester
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NanoMech

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2015, 04:11:33 AM »

Here's something interesting. The second they came out with the SR, I wondered when we would see the DS version. Looks like the wait is over!
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2015/03/03/motorcycle-category/sportbikes/zero-dsr-zero-fxs-trademarked/

That's exactly what I want! I use my bike, with my wife on her 2014 DS, only for play in the redwood forests along the Santa Cruz mountains, and would love more torque for low-speed play! I traded up to the Zero DS, from my XR1200, and it compares favorably for torque play. I spoke with Hollywood Electrics regarding upgrading my 2014 DS with SR powertrain, and advised those I knew at the factory. I would trade-in/sell my 2014 for something this fun!
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protomech

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2015, 05:04:17 AM »

Some thoughts on 2016 and later .. namely when does Zero switch to a high voltage system.

Two engineers at Zero recently have given interviews where they've strongly indicated they're not looking at high voltage systems.

The first is an interview with Abe Askenazi, Zero's CTO.

Quote
Most powersports equipment is based around Field-Effect Transistor (FET) technology, which peaks around 130 volts. When you go to higher voltage, you have to go to Insulated-Gate Bipolar Transistor (IGBT) technology. The car guys are at 300-400 volts, which incidentally the Harley-Davidson Livewire is 300 volts. But at the level of power that a motorcycle makes, the difference is not that impactful. It’s also a safety issue: Our manufacturing is pretty high-end, but we don’t have automotive levels of safety, and we can’t guarantee that every dealership is going to have high-voltage safety systems in place. The standard for powersports and industrial equipment such as forklifts is 102 volts, which if you screw up will shock and hurt you, but isn’t fatal. If you get shocked with a 300-400-volt battery, you’re dead.
The second are interviews Luke Workman has conducted with both Motorcycle.com and gizmag, during a Zero factory tour. Note the same photos supplied with both articles. Luke is better known in the EV community as liveforphysics.

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So why not go up to a higher voltage that would work with the existing charging infrastructure? "If we went to 300 volts, it would hurt you on every front that matters," says Zero's Senior Battery Specialist Luke Workman. "We'd have lower efficiency, lower power, higher cost, higher drive train heat – and in terms of life safety for the guys that are working on these things, you go from a nasty tickle … to dead. The majority of electric vehicles that are using higher voltages are doing so simply because they've been designed using legacy equipment. You'll see a lot more EVs going low voltage in the future."

So why do we want high voltage anyway? Two things: higher power motor controllers and DC quick charging.

1. Higher power motor controllers

The Zero SR and Brammo Empulse use the Sevcon Gen 4 Size 6, one of the largest "low voltage" motor controllers. They're pretty quick! But there's always someone who wants more power .. like Luke. For larger bikes or regearing for higher speeds, both of these applications will need more power, as well as better cooling.

For more power, the answer traditionally has been to go higher voltage. Energica, Mission, Lightning, Brammo's RR bikes all use these ~350V high power motor controllers. Sevcon, Curtis, and Kelly all top out at around 50 kW with their ~100V AC motor controllers. Zero seems to have more clout with suppliers nowadays; can Zero convince Sevcon to build a larger low-voltage Gen 4? Or use two smaller motor controllers? Or maybe someone - Zero in-house? - will build a higher power low voltage controller?

2. DC quick charging

Presently Zero's bikes are ~100V and 110 Ah for the ZF12.5, or 135 Ah for the Power Tank model. In order to get a 30 minute 80% charge on Zero's present bikes, Zero will need about 200A DC. For a larger bike - suppose they built a six or eight brick pack at the same voltage - they would need 300 to 400A DC to get the same 30 minute 80% charge.

CHAdeMO presently supports only up to 125A, though the spec supposedly can be extended up to 200A. SAE CCS supports up to 200A already, and may be able to be extended up to 400A. Existing chargers may not support voltages this low or currents this high. And - after the short-lived CHAdeMO adapter for the 2013 bikes - they need to make sure DC charging is bulletproof and works every time, all the time.

Quote
In the meanwhile, Zero is taking an active role in trying to push adherence to fast charging standards. "We're on the committee for the IEEE P2030.1 DC fast charging standard," says Zero's Head of Electrical Engineering Kenyon Kluge. "Our goal is simply to push for compliance with the spec that already exists."
This is a long-term play on Zero's part IMO. Any steering pressure Zero can apply as part of the IEEE committee (which I believe has some input into both the SAE and CHAdeMO charging standards groups) will take years to resolve .. and in those years, perhaps the old incompatible chargers will be taken out of service, and the charging networks will grow to a point where DC QC travel is realistic.
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Francois

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2015, 01:24:18 PM »

nice post protomech,
for me 50kw is enaught if the bike is light weigt 140 kg will be very nice with 50kw
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Doug S

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2015, 08:02:27 PM »

Thinking about this subject last night it occurred to me that whatever we say or think will likely have no immediate impact on the next year's design.

I'm sure that's true, I think really we're talking about changes we'd like to see for some future model year, but probably not 2016. OTOH, I'm sure some things like battery configuration, frame size and shape and the like are determined years in advance, while other things don't need to be decided so early. Motor design is probably done even farther in advance. But if we told them we wanted a better horn, that would probably be a pretty quick change since it's just a bolt-on item.
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2015, 05:51:18 PM »

Better onboard charging as standard, something between 3.3 and 6 kWh, with level 2 charging plugs (J1772 or Mennekes)

Right now this one lacking feature is stopping me using the bike to its full potential, for example 110 mile round trip @ 60-70mph, not happening.

Yes aftermarket & first party offboard chargers are available, but I feel they are a stop gap solution.
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Francois

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2015, 02:06:39 AM »

Some news about 2016 model?
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Erasmo

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2015, 02:28:22 AM »

Both the 2014 and 2015 models were released at the end of September/beginning of October so we have to wait a few more months unless there are leaks.
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Richard230

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2015, 03:36:43 AM »

Both the 2014 and 2015 models were released at the end of September/beginning of October so we have to wait a few more months unless there are leaks.

If there has ever been a leak out of the Zero factory about next year's models, I sure haven't heard about it.
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protomech

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2015, 07:52:29 PM »

Both the 2014 and 2015 models were released at the end of September/beginning of October so we have to wait a few more months unless there are leaks.

If there has ever been a leak out of the Zero factory about next year's models, I sure haven't heard about it.

Not necessarily a leak from the factory, but the prototypes raced at REFUEL have often hinted at next year's model. That'll be coming up in a couple of weeks, but no clue if Zero is registered.

At the 2013 eGrandPrix race, Kenyon Kluge was racing a modified Zero S, but it may well have been a prototype for the 2014 SR.
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Cortezdtv

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2015, 08:20:41 PM »

Pikes peak is at same time as refuel so Hollywood electric is going to pikes


I will be at refuel with a couple bikes
I know a couple zero people will
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protomech

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2015, 10:44:11 PM »

Pikes peak is at same time as refuel so Hollywood electric is going to pikes


I will be at refuel with a couple bikes
I know a couple zero people will

Love to see your size 6 FX on the track.. get some video too :)
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Erasmo

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Re: Zero 2016
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2015, 08:09:31 PM »

Both the 2014 and 2015 models were released at the end of September/beginning of October so we have to wait a few more months unless there are leaks.

If there has ever been a leak out of the Zero factory about next year's models, I sure haven't heard about it.
Leaks can always happen, all it takes is somebody that forgets to cover up a piece of fairing tucked away in a corner during a factory tour or a usb stick with a picture that gets lost.
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