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[Burton]

@Burton the emergency disconnect would be for a situation where say the motor somehow locked up while riding with a seized bearing or meltdowm. Shutting off the killswitch wont free the rear wheel and if it locks then the bike would slide. I remember it happening at the TTXGP one year there was a crash on youtube.

Can you find the TTXGP crash and show specifically where it was a bearing failure of the motor? I am sure there must have been a huge write up about this somewhere. That stated I am not racing my bike but it does have ceramic bearings in the motor.

If this was really a problem I am sure it wouldn't be hard to engineer a guillotine device to cut the belt. A CO2 cartridge driven device could do this easily I would imagine. Just be sure not accidentally hit the firing device while casually riding lol 

I think it might be a very long time before you get a clutch like device on these motors given the amount of torque they push out. Are there any electric bikes with operable clutches where they perform better or identical to Zero bikes for example?

[DynoMutt]

Carbon- (Brooklyn) and the one in Albany dropped off the Zero Dealer Locator.
I was able to call C- on the phone as recently as last month, but the situation may have changed recently.
I'm still trying to hunt down what happened and what my options are.  It seems like it can't be a permanent situation that the largest metro area of the country has no dealer.
The nearest dealer on the locator now appears to be Cherry Hill, NJ, just outside of Philadelphia.

Dynomutt that info is greatly appreciated. Benswing was nice enough to PM me that fact the other day but that end of NJ is very far to go from the Boston area in the winter. Great Bay Motorcycles is closer to me in NH only 21/2 hrs that's where I rode the FX (awesome bike) but there S was an older version. It looked like a 2012 but I hardly looked at it since time was short and the FX was cooler.

So, I discovered just today that apparently the space that C- formerly occupied is now in use by a company called "MotorGrrl" (http://www.motorgrrl.com/) that operated a cooperative mechanical workspace.  The person who answered the phone says that they have taken over the operation of the space and that the principals of C- are no longer involved in any way.

[chdfarl]

Can you find the TTXGP crash and show specifically where it was a bearing failure of the motor? I am sure there must have been a huge write up about this somewhere. That stated I am not racing my bike but it does have ceramic bearings in the motor.

If this was really a problem I am sure it wouldn't be hard to engineer a guillotine device to cut the belt. A CO2 cartridge driven device could do this easily I would imagine. Just be sure not accidentally hit the firing device while casually riding lol 

I think it might be a very long time before you get a clutch like device on these motors given the amount of torque they push out. Are there any electric bikes with operable clutches where they perform better or identical to Zero bikes for example?

I'm going to list a few things here to address this rather than a lengthy confusing paragraph.

I AM NOT SAYING NOR DID I EVER SAY TO USE A CLUTCH ON ANY ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE! WHAT I SAID WAS DISCONNECT!

If you doubt that the bearing or motor could lock up then may it never happen to you but I wont feel bad for you either. Racing or not machines ( even electric ones ) break and the point is to save your ass not mine.

The Ducati Panigale has 100 ft-lbs of torque as do other sportbikes these days so its clutch could handle even the Zero SR ( Oh no I spoke its name  )
http://www.ducati.com/bikes/superbike/1299_panigale/tech_spec.do

I was the guy that said that the clutch was of little use even on the Brammo

I don't remember where I saw the video and couldn't find it yet. It was like the second year at the TT ( who knows it could've been a vivid dream )

Even if it never happened do you really feel that such a mechanism threatens or impairs your machine.

You could cut the belt if you like but a disconnect would do it without cutting the belt.

[chdfarl]

So, I discovered just today that apparently the space that C- formerly occupied is now in use by a company called "MotorGrrl" (http://www.motorgrrl.com/) that operated a cooperative mechanical workspace.  The person who answered the phone says that they have taken over the operation of the space and that the principals of C- are no longer involved in any way.
 

I heard the guy was building his own electric bicycles or something like that. It is disappointing that there isn't any electric motorcycle sales in New York City.

[Burton]

I AM NOT SAYING NOR DID I EVER SAY TO USE A CLUTCH ON ANY ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE! WHAT I SAID WAS DISCONNECT!

Do you have an example of a mechanical disconnect which is not a clutch based device that could be retrofitted onto electric bikes?

[chdfarl]

No and I wouldn't post my design yet but its quite simple yet rugged but wouldn't fit in the small space on the Zero at the sprocket but a belt tensioner with a quick release would.

[Burton]

Over sized belt, with adjustable tensioner which could be spring loaded to a quick release seems like it would work ... Wonder what size belt would be needed and if they are easy to find. It would also introduce another point of failure though so it would indeed have to be pretty rugged.

Would you constantly cover said control or only keep it in fingers reach?

I can think of several ways of making such a device but I likely wouldn't have to time to do it any time soon given all the other projects I am working on.

[Biff]

But I disagree with Biff entirely; I respect his belief, but a couple of guys (Burton and DoctorBass, IIRC) have actually seen the code that's loaded into the controller, and it's clear that torque is intentionally limited at very low (near zero) RPM. One of them (I think the good doctor) even posted the code listing, but I can't find it right now. And my experience in over 8000 miles on my SR makes me believe it's true -- the bike is quick off the line, but the torque definitely builds from zero speed up to 20 or 30 mph. One of the other guys also drag-raced an SR against a Brammo, and he said the same thing -- the Brammo kept pace until about that speed, then the SR walked away.

I'm quite certain that Zero has limited the torque output at very low speeds, and I'm just trying to understand why. Okay, belt snapping may not be a major factor, wheelspin may not be big either (except when traction is low due to rain or poor surfaces), so what is the reason? Is it pure overly cautious liability concern? I'm beginning to think it must be.

That is one common misconception that I would really like to clear up.  There is no firmware based modification that anyone has done to any brushless Zero motorcycle that has increased the torque of the motor, because the configurations that come with the stock vehicle are already set to get as much performance as possible.   

[teddillard]

@teddillard I was talking to a friend who has ridden a lot of bikes a mechanic and they were interested in riding the zero and noticed it had no clutch either. I informed them all they had to do was roll off the throttle :/

To me it wasn't difficult to transition to this while still riding my ICE bike where I keep my controls covered. In my mind they just are different and operate differently.

As for adding a fake clutch you could slave your kill switch to a clutch lever and go that route. I plan on using my clutch lever for dynamic regeneration though. Or go with two clutch levers and cover the kill switch one? Or maybe have the regen lever trip the kill switch when it bottoms out (this would be some neat engineering to accomplish)

I have had two emergency stop scenarios with my zero so far. Both times without thinking I simply rolled off the throttle and engaged the front brake at the same time ... I think. I keep my front brake covered at all times so it happened really fast. I haven't tried to activate the brake light while the throttle was so open I couldn't not still have it open when applying the brakes yet. What is programmed to happen in this case?

I can think of two times in my 46k miles on my ICE bike where when emergency stopping my motor rev'ed pretty high because I simply clutched in / braked really fast and didn't drop the throttle down.

You missed the bit about losing my balance.  I was falling backwards, and as a result twisting the throttle on.  The more I did that, the more the bike walked away, and the more it twisted on.  It was a ridiculous slow-speed hilarious thing, except for it kind of hurt.     Ultimately your brain kicks in and you just let go of the bike and try to get out of it's way.

It's not an unusual thing to happen at all with dirt riding, especially if you like hill climbs, and it can be how it goes if you're dumping in some slow-speed turns.  One guy I knew of had it happen pulling out of a parking lot, turning and leaning, and hitting sand, for example.  If you ride long enough (40+ years in my case) you find lots of cool ways to fall over.    Back in my misspent youth I'd do about half your 46k miles in a summer. 

With a gas bike you try to grab the clutch, but sometimes that's not even possible.  With an electric, you'd go for the kill switch I suppose, but that's not a reflex that is so ingrained. 

[Richard230]

Speaking of bearings failing:  Terry was on his way to my home a couple of years ago and while he was crossing the Golden Gate Bridge, the bearings on his 2012 Zero motor decided to throw in the towel at around 20K miles of hard use.  My recollection is that the motor didn't lock up, but instead it made some nasty noises and slowly ground to a halt.  I don't think the incident resulted in any disruption of traffic on the Bridge, but he did have to have the bike towed to the Zero factory where they replaced the motor and sent him on his way.

I have had a couple of friends over the years have their rear wheel bearings disintegrate.  While the bearings made a mess inside the wheel hub, I don't recall anyone complaining about the rear wheel locking up.

So I don't think that the idea that motor bearings might fail and toss you off your bike is something to worry too much about.  What you should be worried about is the cost and hassle of replacing the motor if you are out of warranty.   

[Doug S]

So I don't think that the idea that motor bearings might fail and toss you off your bike is something to worry too much about.

My old boss used to talk about chasing a mouse with a red Ferrari. I think that quote's appropriate here.

[chdfarl]

@Ted how'd you get to ride the Ego anyway?  That might seem off subject but the tread is concerning test rides.

[teddillard]

Hey, it's your thread...   

I've been in touch with the folks at Energica (CRP) for several years now, and was invited to do a test ride/review when they did the big tour this summer.  I reviewed it for my site, The Electric Chronicles (more from a builder's standpoint), and also InsideEVs (a more standard review), which I write for now. 

links:
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/07/29/the-energica-ego-ride-bike-review/ (my site)
http://insideevs.com/energica-ego-bear-mountain-ride-review/ (InsideEVs)

...and the video:

(Sorry, can't seem to figure out how to embed it here.)

That's Ben(swing) Rich in front of me at the start of the video, by the way. 

More interesting to me, personally, was the chance to have a lengthy talk with Livia Cevolini.  There are no interviews with her online (that I could find) in english, to the point that I wondered if she spoke english well.  (She does ) I did these interviews, but also talked with her for about an hour before that.  It was a really remarkable chance to learn a whole lot about the process of designing a machine like this, and bringing a bike to market.  Kinda puts the "I'd do it this way..." and "why didn't they..." chatter into perspective.
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/07/29/the-livia-cevolini-interviews-energica-crp-ego-racing-the-market-all-that/

[Biff]

Stall torque and it's effect on 0 RPM performance is not a theory, just to be clear.  Given that, you're talking about two different things - acceleration from 0 RPM, and acceleration from well onto the torque/power band to a higher RPM. Seems like it'd be hard to measure, but if it's the case, it would certainly suggest throttle mapping, which it sounds like we've confirmed is what Zero is doing. 

My suspicion is that they're concerned with riders who are unaccustomed to riding without a clutch.  Most experienced riders will use the clutch to feather power off the line, even during hard acceleration on the power band, and in some cases use it for low-speed control of power.  You don't have that kind of option with an electric motor. 

Please stop proliferating this rumour, It is not true.  Zero does not limit off the line torque.  You can hold the rear brake, go full throttle and measure RMS current into the motor and you will see that it is the maximum that the controller will deliver.
Also feel free to install accurate accelerometers on the motorcycle (or accurate wheel speed sensors) to measure acceleration, you will see that it is constant from 0 to around 40mph (at which point wind starts to cause decreased acceleration, and as speed increases the constant power section of the power curve limits acceleration).

Thanks,
-ryan

[Cortezdtv]

Stall torque and it's effect on 0 RPM performance is not a theory, just to be clear.  Given that, you're talking about two different things - acceleration from 0 RPM, and acceleration from well onto the torque/power band to a higher RPM. Seems like it'd be hard to measure, but if it's the case, it would certainly suggest throttle mapping, which it sounds like we've confirmed is what Zero is doing. 

My suspicion is that they're concerned with riders who are unaccustomed to riding without a clutch.  Most experienced riders will use the clutch to feather power off the line, even during hard acceleration on the power band, and in some cases use it for low-speed control of power.  You don't have that kind of option with an electric motor. 

Please stop proliferating this rumour, It is not true.  Zero does not limit off the line torque.  You can hold the rear brake, go full throttle and measure RMS current into the motor and you will see that it is the maximum that the controller will deliver.
Also feel free to install accurate accelerometers on the motorcycle (or accurate wheel speed sensors) to measure acceleration, you will see that it is constant from 0 to around 40mph (at which point wind starts to cause decreased acceleration, and as speed increases the constant power section of the power curve limits acceleration).

Thanks,
-ryan

How do they regulate the power then?

The fx is "limited" 0 to 30
My other which is much less limited sure seems like it has 2x the power from 0 to 30