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[Justin Andrews]

http://www.motorcycleconsumernews-digitalmagazine.com/mcnews/september_2014d?pg=20#pg20

[teddillard]

There is one flaw in this theory of the lag being a stall torque issue. That is even when accelerating out of a corner at low or high speed the lag was still there.

Stall torque and it's effect on 0 RPM performance is not a theory, just to be clear.  Given that, you're talking about two different things - acceleration from 0 RPM, and acceleration from well onto the torque/power band to a higher RPM. Seems like it'd be hard to measure, but if it's the case, it would certainly suggest throttle mapping, which it sounds like we've confirmed is what Zero is doing. 

My suspicion is that they're concerned with riders who are unaccustomed to riding without a clutch.  Most experienced riders will use the clutch to feather power off the line, even during hard acceleration on the power band, and in some cases use it for low-speed control of power.  You don't have that kind of option with an electric motor. 

I didn't really realize that myself until I was losing my balance at almost 0 mph, falling backwards, and twisting the throttle as I fell.  I instinctively grabbed for the clutch, which of course wasn't there.

...the clip that Burton linked to, which shows Electric Cowboy spinning his rear wheel starting his Pike's Peak run ...

Not to be pedantic, but I consider chirping the rear on a start to be quite a bit different than "wheel spin" for whatever that's worth.

[Doug S]

http://www.motorcycleconsumernews-digitalmagazine.com/mcnews/september_2014d?pg=20#pg20

Thanks for digging that up, Justin! The article is just as good a read as it is nice to see actual dyno test results.

I love the articles that clearly come from skeptical minds. These days, in the end they always wind up converted, yet offer up a few standard caveats: 1) They're expensive (very valid argument), 2) range limitations (valid argument, but not very weighty these days), 3) recharging times (ditto), 4) sub-standard hardware (ditto again), and 5) they're too quiet to be safe (come on! -- studies buried that old trope years ago). But at the very, very end, their skepticism lifts fractionally and it becomes clear....they want one.

[chdfarl]

Stall torque and it's effect on 0 RPM performance is not a theory, just to be clear.  Given that, you're talking about two different things - acceleration from 0 RPM, and acceleration from well onto the torque/power band to a higher RPM. Seems like it'd be hard to measure, but if it's the case, it would certainly suggest throttle mapping, which it sounds like we've confirmed is what Zero is doing. 

I wasn't saying that stall torque was a theory in and of it self but rather a theory as to the Zeros acceleration "lag" and the mapping was confirmed on page 1 but stall torque was brought up so that's why I commented there.

My suspicion is that they're concerned with riders who are unaccustomed to riding without a clutch.  Most experienced riders will use the clutch to feather power off the line, even during hard acceleration on the power band, and in some cases use it for low-speed control of power.  You don't have that kind of option with an electric motor. 

If you read back that was discussed one page 1 too where I argued that catering to new riders could alienate experience riders that would like to see the full potential of the bikes (Zero S and Brammo Empulse some how the SR became the subject) other motorcycle companies have TC traction control that could be turned off.

[teddillard]

Yes, as I said, just clarifying. 

About the clutch, I'm not sure that that point was actually made - in fact I've not seen it discussed anywhere, regarding the clutch giving you an emergency disengage in a "clutch" situation (oh, gawd, sorry).    

Unfortunately it's something most riders don't learn until they experience it.  Also it's something that more experienced riders will struggle more with than newbies, since it's all muscle memory.  Riding my dirt bike, (converted RM125) it's practically something I have to talk to myself out loud, since so much of that is slow-speed stuff.  I also have a hard time riding scooters, where the front brake is on the left hand.  I'm always grabbing for the clutch, (which I don't need because it's an automatic) and grabbing a handful of front brake instead.

Kind of still on topic, I guess, in a remote way.  Moving on... 

[chdfarl]

 I feel the topic is all encompassing.
Ive been trying to design an emergency drive disconnect for direct drives like the Zeros but don't know the shaft size yet.

[DynoMutt]

To answer your question, yes the throttle is mapped so you don't get as much torque off the line so people don't spin their tires or do a wheelie.   

Also, try out a Zero SR.  They are awesome.  Good punch off the line (still mapped down a bit for safety), but once you hit 30mph the acceleration really rips!

Id love to but the East Coast is devoid of electric sales. I plan to check out the International Motorcycle Show in NYC and might check out the Zero dealer in Brooklyn but its in Dec. and the city so riding would be compromised a bit.

Its no wonder motorcyclist are slow to adapt if the companies are detuning there bikes even in sport mode. I know that would squeeze the batteries like a tube of toothpaste (watch my Brammo video) but that wouldn't bother me if the bike was ripping. Id rather play hard for a half hour than putt around for a couple hours. That's only my opinion though and for my money id buy the FX but id still sooner put the battery and motor on my KX chassis.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/locator/

Carbon- (Brooklyn) and the one in Albany dropped off the Zero Dealer Locator.

I was able to call C- on the phone as recently as last month, but the situation may have changed recently.

I'm still trying to hunt down what happened and what my options are.  It seems like it can't be a permanent situation that the largest metro area of the country has no dealer.

The nearest dealer on the locator now appears to be Cherry Hill, NJ, just outside of Philadelphia.

[Doug S]

Not to be pedantic, but I consider chirping the rear on a start to be quite a bit different than "wheel spin" for whatever that's worth.

I can't agree with you there. Once a tire's broken loose, it's a lot harder to regain traction. The drag racers work very hard to not chirp their tires on launch because the know if they do, they're just a razor's edge away from going up in smoke.

But I'm not saying EC "spun his tire". I'm saying it's very possible, and as someone else said, it's probably more of a matter of weight distribution, wheelbase, etc. than it is any lack of power/torque. Electrics are just as capable of spinning their rear tire as ICE bikes are.

[chdfarl]

Carbon- (Brooklyn) and the one in Albany dropped off the Zero Dealer Locator.
I was able to call C- on the phone as recently as last month, but the situation may have changed recently.
I'm still trying to hunt down what happened and what my options are.  It seems like it can't be a permanent situation that the largest metro area of the country has no dealer.
The nearest dealer on the locator now appears to be Cherry Hill, NJ, just outside of Philadelphia.

Dynomutt that info is greatly appreciated. Benswing was nice enough to PM me that fact the other day but that end of NJ is very far to go from the Boston area in the winter. Great Bay Motorcycles is closer to me in NH only 21/2 hrs that's where I rode the FX (awesome bike) but there S was an older version. It looked like a 2012 but I hardly looked at it since time was short and the FX was cooler.

I can't agree with you there. Once a tire's broken loose, it's a lot harder to regain traction. The drag racers work very hard to not chirp their tires on launch because the know if they do, they're just a razor's edge away from going up in smoke.

That's not quite accurate once you lose traction with wheel spin its as simple as decreasing the throttle ( usually ) and grip comes back ( check out some super moto/motard drift videos ). That is why in drag racing you try not to spin since they can usually balance the bike while spinning the tire but they aren't hooking up so they don't go fast or far until they back off and that's the skill in launching and throttle modulation and that's why in my opinion TC is cheating. 

[Burton]

@teddillard I was talking to a friend who has ridden a lot of bikes a mechanic and they were interested in riding the zero and noticed it had no clutch either. I informed them all they had to do was roll off the throttle :/

To me it wasn't difficult to transition to this while still riding my ICE bike where I keep my controls covered. In my mind they just are different and operate differently.

As for adding a fake clutch you could slave your kill switch to a clutch lever and go that route. I plan on using my clutch lever for dynamic regeneration though. Or go with two clutch levers and cover the kill switch one? Or maybe have the regen lever trip the kill switch when it bottoms out (this would be some neat engineering to accomplish)

I have had two emergency stop scenarios with my zero so far. Both times without thinking I simply rolled off the throttle and engaged the front brake at the same time ... I think. I keep my front brake covered at all times so it happened really fast. I haven't tried to activate the brake light while the throttle was so open I couldn't not still have it open when applying the brakes yet. What is programmed to happen in this case?

I can think of two times in my 46k miles on my ICE bike where when emergency stopping my motor rev'ed pretty high because I simply clutched in / braked really fast and didn't drop the throttle down.

[chdfarl]

@Burton the emergency disconnect would be for a situation where say the motor somehow locked up while riding with a seized bearing or meltdowm. Shutting off the killswitch wont free the rear wheel and if it locks then the bike would slide. I remember it happening at the TTXGP one year there was a crash on youtube.

[Cortezdtv]

Little confused.  The brake light comes on even if you are doing a massive rolling burnout and holding the front bake slowly releasing so thoes wild drift/sliding launches





Personally after having talked to a friend more and more about variable progressive braking I'll pass; seems like it will cause problems in the long term to the bike (from what I have been told)

I think best option is just tune the regen better like on my other retuned bike.

[Cortezdtv]

@Burton the emergency disconnect would be for a situation where say the motor somehow locked up while riding with a seized bearing or meltdowm. Shutting off the killswitch wont free the rear wheel and if it locks then the bike would slide. I remember it happening at the TTXGP one year there was a crash on youtube.

If I had a massive seize and had to walk the bike home after I'd just slip the belt off the rear or worst case snip it.... If you truly did have a lockup I think the bike would be the least of your issues, if be happy if I could walk away from a lock up rear crash at speed prolly care less about the bike at that point

[chdfarl]

If I had a massive seize and had to walk the bike home after I'd just slip the belt off the rear or worst case snip it.... If you truly did have a lockup I think the bike would be the least of your issues, if be happy if I could walk away from a lock up rear crash at speed prolly care less about the bike at that point

That's the whole point if the motor seized then you pull this disconnect and you don't lock up long enough to crash. Its a split second reaction but if you cant manage that then you probably shouldn't ride a motorcycle ( not directed at you personally but if you fit the description its not an insult only an honest point that motorcyclist should be prepared for disaster )

Same thing with the motard slide. On exit they typically use throttled wheel spin to turn the bike. How this applies to street riding is if you accidentally loose traction with an over zealous twist then you can SLOWLY back off until you feel traction at the tire.

[Burton]

Personally after having talked to a friend more and more about variable progressive braking I'll pass; seems like it will cause problems in the long term to the bike (from what I have been told)

What is this variable progressive braking you speak of?