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Author Topic: Zero S test ride  (Read 10345 times)

NoiseBoy

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2014, 06:28:31 AM »

I should have used the term PMAC but I have heard that and brushless DC used interchangeably.

If you ride an old Zero X with an Agni brushed motor the kick from zero mph is quite impressive even with the relatively low power output compared to the Motenergy and z force motors. Brushed motors will always be more responsive. I believe due to the time it takes to energise the field coils in a PMAC/BLDC motor.
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Cortezdtv

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2014, 07:55:53 AM »

I have to say I agree the old zero x still have quite a kick for how small they are but the stock 13 fx bike throttle response power delivery is a million miles ahead even with one battery.   A hotroded fx turns into a complete monster mine was tuned to edge out a Ducati monster 0 to 70 so decently quick for a dirt bike/now motard

I have raced a few 600 street bikes and I can get out ahead
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 08:08:50 AM by Cortezdtv »
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Doug S

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2014, 10:32:05 PM »

I should have used the term PMAC but I have heard that and brushless DC used interchangeably.
A great example of why the nomenclature drives me crazy.

Quote
Brushed motors will always be more responsive. I believe due to the time it takes to energise the field coils in a PMAC/BLDC motor.
I don't think that's correct. The coils on a brushed DC motor have to be "commutated" (the current periodically reversed through them) as well. They  just accomplish it with brushes rather than smart electronics. In truth, transistors are far faster than any mechanical contact could ever be, and don't exhibit sparking or wear, and have lower losses to boot.

I'm sure there are other differences that account for the different feel you've experienced...probably just the way the motor is designed. Even after they've settled on a configuration (PMAC, say) they still have a lot of design decisions left -- wire gauge, number of turns per coil, number of north/south poles (magnets on the rotor, number of coils), etc. All of those decisions give the designer considerable flexibility to design a high-torque-at-low-rpm motor vs. a high-power-at-high-speed motor, optimize efficiency at some set of conditions, whatever they're looking for. Even if you're not designing from scratch, so many motors are available on the open market you can have pretty much whatever you wish. I'm sure the designers of the bikes we ride have made and changed many decisions about how their motors should perform over the years.
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Biff

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2014, 11:34:49 PM »

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend anything Zero's done. I'm trying to understand it myself. In my mind, there ought to be SOME mode where the motor can put out FULL POWER, by which I mean as much as is safe, without damaging the battery pack (too fast of a discharge rate), the controller or the motor. I was very disappointed to find out that even in "Sport" mode there were arbitrary limits placed on the performance of the bike.


I can say with a great deal of confidence that Sport mode gives you all the power/torque possible that the battery/motor/contrller can provide when you go wide open throttle at any point on a Zero.

If you have time, read through this article (and the lengthy comment)
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/07/07/motor-starting-torque-stall-torque-and-motor-types/

-ryan
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chdfarl

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2014, 01:16:08 AM »

I think I said it on page one but has anyone had their bike on a dyno that has rear wheel numbers and a graph. Any discussion cant be substantiated without that and so its only calculation and or subjective speculation.

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Richard230

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2014, 04:48:22 AM »

Chdfarl, I seem to recall that a couple of the monthly motorcycle magazines performed dyno tests on the 2013 "S" last year and got almost exactly the torque and power that Zero claimed.  I think that most of the dyno action happened after 1000 rpm.

I did find this dyno comparison graph in my computer files.  I am not quite sure why I gave it the title as it seems to compare 2012 and earlier models.  Also I have no recollection where the graph originated.   ???
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chdfarl

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2014, 05:34:22 AM »

Thanks Richard230 what magazines did you see dyno graphs in. That one that you posted doesn't look like any chassis dyno chart I've even seen though.

I only found this

http://www.cycleworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Zero-S-HP-TQ-dyno-chart.jpg
http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/325660-2/2012-zero-ds-vs-2010-zero-s.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=TMP_SESSION_ID_DI_NOISSES_PMT
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 07:21:13 AM by chdfarl »
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teddillard

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2014, 05:18:37 PM »

It's not just to get more range that they don't allow full thrust instantaneously. There's a wheelspin issue, especially since they don't equip even the SR with wide, sticky tires, which could be a liability issue, especially in wet conditions.

There's a belt-snapping issue; I'm pretty convinced that if the belt can stand 106 ft-lbs of torque, it can stand it at any time, but there is the possibility of high jerk loading causing the belt to have issues (jerk is the mathematical derivative of acceleration; look it up).

Thanks for the links above, I just want to say more than a few people have missed the point of that thread.  As a builder I'm concerned with the various trade-offs of the types of motors you can run, and it seemed to my butt that all of the AC/brushless motors have less of a feel of a jolt right off the line than the PMDC motors I've run.  It's pretty clear that every motor type and design has slightly different "stall torque" characteristics.  That's basic motor design and physics, as I learned.  And it's backed up by the graphs.

Softer stall torque in a PMAC motor I'd say even applies to the Energica EGO I rode.  Peg the throttle off the line, and it feels soft (and no, I couldn't pull the front end up or spin the tire even though I tried, but it gets 0-60 in under 3 sec.).  Once it spins up, it's all hell breaking loose.  The Zero SR I rode is what got my attention on this issue, because it was so quick 0-60, but my PMDC would lift the front end where the Zero SR won't. 

Regarding the quote above, I can't imagine wheelspin being an issue under any normal riding conditions for a bike like this.  Nor is belt-snapping.  The only bikes I've ever ridden that spin the wheel as opposed to lifting the front end are heavy pigs - Harleys, Leadwings, etc.  Anything that has a decent power to weight ratio will lift the front long, long before it spins the tires. My bike, very similar to the Harley Livewire in all performance specs, and not far off the SR in everything but range, would never spin the tire, though the front end comes up all the time. It's running a very narrow, '70s style width on a 1971 stock lace wheel. 

As far as belt-snapping due to off-the-line power application, it ain't gonna happen. 

And to be clear, I'm talking about torque from start - that is, 0 RPM to the 500 RPM range.  The torque a motor has to start itself spinning, which is not the same as other measurements of torque and power.

I think it's pretty clear (to me, anyway) that first, the characteristics of the Zero motor being what they are, and second, the throttle mapping they've decided on, gives the SR a slightly soft start.  That's good for 95% of riders. 
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 05:43:14 PM by teddillard »
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Doug S

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2014, 08:52:38 PM »

Regarding the quote above, I can't imagine wheelspin being an issue under any normal riding conditions for a bike like this.

As far as belt-snapping due to off-the-line power application, it ain't gonna happen.

I think it's pretty clear (to me, anyway) that first, the characteristics of the Zero motor being what they are, and second, the throttle mapping they've decided on, gives the SR a slightly soft start.  That's good for 95% of riders.

I think just about everything you say is spot-on, Ted. I would point out the clip that Burton linked to, which shows Electric Cowboy spinning his rear wheel starting his Pike's Peak run to show that it IS possible for a lean, high-performance bike to do so, but I agree that it's rare without front-wheel braking or dropping the clutch on a spun-up ICE motor. Modern tires are just too good.

I'd also agree that belt snapping isn't much of an issue. If it can withstand 106 ft-lbs of torque, it should be able to withstand it under any circumstances. Belt lifetime could be an issue, but if you break belts early because you're hot-rodding every start, that's on you, not the equipment.

But I disagree with Biff entirely; I respect his belief, but a couple of guys (Burton and DoctorBass, IIRC) have actually seen the code that's loaded into the controller, and it's clear that torque is intentionally limited at very low (near zero) RPM. One of them (I think the good doctor) even posted the code listing, but I can't find it right now. And my experience in over 8000 miles on my SR makes me believe it's true -- the bike is quick off the line, but the torque definitely builds from zero speed up to 20 or 30 mph. One of the other guys also drag-raced an SR against a Brammo, and he said the same thing -- the Brammo kept pace until about that speed, then the SR walked away.

I'm quite certain that Zero has limited the torque output at very low speeds, and I'm just trying to understand why. Okay, belt snapping may not be a major factor, wheelspin may not be big either (except when traction is low due to rain or poor surfaces), so what is the reason? Is it pure overly cautious liability concern? I'm beginning to think it must be.
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chdfarl

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2014, 09:24:29 PM »

The difference of if the front end lifts or traction breaking is typically a riding position issue rather than anything else. Simply put leaned forward or leaned over expect slippage where as if your sitting up and back while riding straight then the time is 12o'clock (term for a straight up and down wheelie).

That's all great info stuff that I never considered until riding those two bikes since everyone touts the 100% from 0 claims. There is one flaw in this theory of the lag being a stall torque issue. That is even when accelerating out of a corner at low or high speed the lag was still there. In contrast there are quite a few petrol bikes out there with less torque that lift the wheel in 3rd or 4th gear at up to 90 mph and watch the throttle while exiting a corner if you like your paint and life. Now Ill pause here to say that personally I feel that those practices are foolish and excessive but the point is that 66 ft-lbs on a 400 lb bike isn't limited to lifting from a stop. If you've never ridden a modern sportbike (no not the Hayabusa!) even a 600cc or even a standard bike like an FZ then you might not understand what I mean (that statement is not pointed at any individual!).

By the way that guy is riding the crap out of his clutch and that guy is totally fumbling the start .


If your happy with the throttle response that's great but don't boast crazy torque if its bottled or limited (this statement is in reference to the Zero S and Brammo Empulse that I rode exclusively!) By the way my street ride is my first bike a 1971 CB 450 (not a fast bike) and I plan on replacing it with a 72V 450A 25HP electric bike with whatever torque is on it for the street. Im content with that but you wont hear me saying that its out pacing even a moped (no im not comparing any production electric motorcycle to a moped!) if its not.   
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 09:40:08 PM by chdfarl »
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Richard230

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2014, 09:32:02 PM »

Thanks Richard230 what magazines did you see dyno graphs in. That one that you posted doesn't look like any chassis dyno chart I've even seen though.

I only found this

http://www.cycleworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Zero-S-HP-TQ-dyno-chart.jpg
http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/325660-2/2012-zero-ds-vs-2010-zero-s.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=TMP_SESSION_ID_DI_NOISSES_PMT

I found it.  :)  Motorcycle Consumer News performed a complete instrumented road test of the ZF 11.4 SR with power tank (14.2 kWh), including a dyno run, in their September 2014 issue.  The dyno chart starts at 1000 rpm and the motor drops dead at 6K rpm.  Torque starts at about 106 lb. ft. at 1K rpm and then bumps up slightly to 109 lb. ft at 3.400 rpm, when it starts dropping quickly to about 60 lb. ft. at 5,600 rpm and hits zero at 6K.  Power grows from 20 hp at 1K rpm to 72.8 hp at 3,800 rpm.  Power slowly drops off to about 62 hp at 5,600 rpm and drops like a rock to 6K rpm.
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chdfarl

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2014, 09:37:00 PM »

CRAP! cant see it online! Sounds cool though but why not until 1000RPM is that the bike or the dyno not picking it up
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Richard230

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2014, 09:42:47 PM »

CRAP! cant see it online! Sounds cool though but why not until 1000RPM is that the bike or the dyno not picking it up

I have no idea, but it must have something to do with the type of dyno.  It might be a rolling inertial drum type and perhaps those devices must be revolving before they can provide any power and torque results.   ???
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2014, 09:49:09 PM »

"Sounds cool though but why not until 1000RPM is that the bike or the dyno not picking it up"

Not sure, but I would hazard a guess that some dyno's are probably not set up / calibrated to record anything under the idle speed of an ICE engine perhaps?
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Doug S

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2014, 10:11:58 PM »

CRAP! cant see it online! Sounds cool though but why not until 1000RPM is that the bike or the dyno not picking it up

Agreed, I'd love to see that graph. Can you digitize it for us, Richard? Just take a digital pic and post it, that'd make me happy. If the magazine won't do it, someone should pick up the slack for them.

I imagine Justin's right, their dyno's just set up to start the run at 1000 RPM. That's not a bad number to start with for an ICE bike but it's a lousy starting point for an electric. It skips the most interesting region entirely. Too bad they didn't invest a little time/energy into setting up a better test...but I'd still love to see it!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 10:18:35 PM by Doug S »
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