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Author Topic: Zero S test ride  (Read 10347 times)

chdfarl

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2014, 01:15:14 AM »

To answer your question, yes the throttle is mapped so you don't get as much torque off the line so people don't spin their tires or do a wheelie.   

Also, try out a Zero SR.  They are awesome.  Good punch off the line (still mapped down a bit for safety), but once you hit 30mph the acceleration really rips!

Id love to but the East Coast is devoid of electric sales. I plan to check out the International Motorcycle Show in NYC and might check out the Zero dealer in Brooklyn but its in Dec. and the city so riding would be compromised a bit. :'(

Its no wonder motorcyclist are slow to adapt if the companies are detuning there bikes even in sport mode. I know that would squeeze the batteries like a tube of toothpaste (watch my Brammo video) but that wouldn't bother me if the bike was ripping. Id rather play hard for a half hour than putt around for a couple hours. That's only my opinion though and for my money id buy the FX but id still sooner put the battery and motor on my KX chassis.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 01:24:16 AM by chdfarl »
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Burton

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2014, 01:27:57 AM »

Is Cowboy the guy that raced pikes peak and did he race in emoto. I didn't see any or many Zeros mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Nozaki_Miller

The year he was there several Zero's were racing if I recall. There is a video somewhere showing him pealing some tire off the line ;)
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chdfarl

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2014, 01:51:08 AM »

OH I saw a Zero promo video of him talking on their website.
Ive only seen this Zero at the 2013 Daytona finale but that was likely that Johnson guy.

Where is that video id like to see it!
I plan to go to one of the races next year at least if they go to NJ. Id love to race but don't have the money to buy or build a proper eracer and entry fees and travel!

This is the only Brandon Miller Zero video that ive found.

Opps found that one after posting the last.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 02:14:46 AM by chdfarl »
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Doug S

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2014, 03:59:32 AM »

Its no wonder motorcyclist are slow to adapt if the companies are detuning there bikes even in sport mode. I know that would squeeze the batteries like a tube of toothpaste (watch my Brammo video) but that wouldn't bother me if the bike was ripping.

It's not just to get more range that they don't allow full thrust instantaneously. There's a wheelspin issue, especially since they don't equip even the SR with wide, sticky tires, which could be a liability issue, especially in wet conditions.

There's a belt-snapping issue; I'm pretty convinced that if the belt can stand 106 ft-lbs of torque, it can stand it at any time, but there is the possibility of high jerk loading causing the belt to have issues (jerk is the mathematical derivative of acceleration; look it up).

But I think the most important issue is just rider familiarity, especially for a new electric rider. The amount of torque the SR (or Burton's bike) gives you is pretty astonishing, and it would be more so if they delivered it instantaneously. People just aren't used to the hammer dropping that fast, and could easily wheelie the bike out from under themselves or just lose control completely, so again it's a liability issue.

I've thought many times that I need to get my bike up to Harlan to have him get rid of any startup slack; I've been riding my SR long enough to respect its immediate power delivery, and it would be nice to see what it can do totally unleashed, a la Burton's bike. Haven't done it yet but I will someday.
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chdfarl

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2014, 05:27:19 AM »


Well as a motorcyclist that spent the time learning to ride and to be safe in the face of such dangers as clutch slip and "whisky throttle" I find that to be a weak rationalization. So they are selling a product to entry level motorcyclists so that they'll never learn proper throttle modulation. I was less disappointed when it seemed like there was no potential to wheelie. Now due to the fact that entry level riders cant handle it you've got to buy a $900 DVT system and likely a chain and sprocket to unleash your $15000 bike that is marketed to have such performance.
 I know a lot of you might find my opinion too harsh or narrow minded but I am confident a large number of motorcyclist would say the same and that's not ignorance its experience.
The Empulses 180 rear could handle 66ft-lbs even a 160 or even a good 150 would be sufficient. Now the SR if it actually puts out 106ft-lbs it could use the 180. Like I said don't blame motorcyclist if they don't line up to buy detuned 500-650 twin equivalent bikes. Or don't market torque that's locked in a box.

Have those bikes ever been dynoed by any independent party.


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Doug S

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2014, 07:28:17 AM »

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend anything Zero's done. I'm trying to understand it myself. In my mind, there ought to be SOME mode where the motor can put out FULL POWER, by which I mean as much as is safe, without damaging the battery pack (too fast of a discharge rate), the controller or the motor. I was very disappointed to find out that even in "Sport" mode there were arbitrary limits placed on the performance of the bike.

That said, if you've never ridden an SR, you really should quit talking about it being no better than a middleweight ICE bike. Honestly, you're sounding kinda silly to those of us who have ridden one. The actual numbers for the 2014 SR are 106 ft-lbs of torque, 407 pounds weight (without extras like the power tank). A Suzuki Hayabusa puts out 100 ft-lbs and weighs around 500 pounds dry. Even de-tuned, the SR will do 0-60 in an honest 3.3 seconds; that's just 0.1 seconds slower than a Mclaren F1. It's a QUICK machine, though its top speed isn't exceptional. If you're looking to put up top speed numbers way in excess of the ton, this isn't your bike. If you're looking for a ridiculously cheap-to-run and fun general-purpose machine that can embarrass Ferrari drivers, it's hard to do better than a Zero SR.
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chdfarl

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2014, 07:57:25 AM »

Don't call me silly if you cant read my post correctly. I've specifically said that I haven't ridden the SR nor did I criticize it in any way. I said 106ft-lbs is ridiculous amounts of torque and that id love to try one.
I'm not singling out Zero either. My experience with both the Zero S (see I said S not SR) and Brammo Empulse (no not the R) in regards to what I've mentioned were similar so they likely both use a similar approach so no one has to wave any flags. Furthermore I am a huge fan of electric propulsion over gas even as a mechanic and long time Ice motorcyclist. That is actually why my feelings are strong on this subject. Id like to see motorcycle enthusiasts that aren't newbs see everything the bikes can do without the bar being set for new riders.

One last thing Im not looking to fight with anyone over someone else's product or my opinions on it so lets leave as I've stated my point and you yours.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 08:11:03 AM by chdfarl »
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Doug S

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2014, 08:09:23 AM »

I don't even think were disagreeing about anything significant.

But I did NOT misinterpret what you said, nor put words in your mouth. Twice, you compared electric bikes to "500-650 twin equivalent bikes".  Even to stress a point, you need to stop doing that. These are bikes that ask no quarter and offer none. I don't primarily see them (even the SR) as performance bikes...I think of my SR as the king of commuter machines that just happens to accelerate harder than almost anything with four wheels. But I've seen many comparisons in the mainstream press of the SR to a middleweight bike just because of its horsepower number; that's just plain ignorant of all the issues involved, and we in our community should not be encouraging it. A Honda Hawk this is NOT.
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chdfarl

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2014, 08:40:25 AM »

Perhaps that's the way you see it but they are motorcycles by all definitions and I can certainly compare them based on my experiences and its a fair comparison that even the companies or at least Brammo has mentioned. My only issue was the "detuning".

You are misquoting and misinterpreting me and that is pretty significant! The two bikes that I rode (Zero S and Brammo Empulse) performed in the physical world (under my own ass that has ridden on countless motorcycles) like 250cc ICE bikes and I am confident that they have the potential to feel even greater with a loss of the "new rider" limitations. I'm happy that you like your bike and no doubt id like the SR too but Im not discussing it so you don't have to get all defensive of it. They are likely great city commuters as is typically stated but I'm not discussing that either. And lastly who are you to say what "we in our community" should or shouldn't say!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 08:44:21 AM by chdfarl »
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Doug S

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2014, 10:29:21 AM »

You are misquoting and misinterpreting me and that is pretty significant!

Yeah, no, I'm not. You actually posted those EXACT words...it's a direct quote, which is why I used the "quotation marks", There's no possibility of misquoting or misinterpreting when I copied and pasted YOUR OWN WORDS.

I'm happy that you like your bike and no doubt id like the SR too but Im not discussing it so you don't have to get all defensive of it.
I'm not defensive in the least, and I have no problem with you comparing numbers between any bikes. Knock yourself out! That's what this forum is FOR. Let's knock the walls down. Yes, I love my bike. And every mile I ridde, I know that compared to any vehicle around me, 1) I'm spending much less money in the long run, 2) I've got much more performance at my fingertips, and 3) I can smoke you, period, end of sentence. If you ride a Hayabusa, I got you. If you drive a Ferrari, I got you. if you drive a....well, I got you, with no exceptions I'm going to run across, unless you drive a 4WD Tesla or a Mclaren F1 or better. There's not much ground left, let alone ground claimed by vehicles costing less than $100,000.

Look...buy the vehicle you want, based on how well it meets your needs/wants. Just don't deceive yourself about those needs/wants, or how well some vehicle meets them.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 10:34:32 AM by Doug S »
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Burton

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2014, 07:25:35 PM »

Press the HD button ;)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 07:28:16 PM by Burton »
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chdfarl

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2014, 08:00:47 PM »

@Doug S you misquoted me by saying that I in any way referred to the SR other than Id like to ride one. I stand by my comparisons of the bikes I've ridden and am done with this debate! By the way I don't like the hayabusa either :-X

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The SR would be a great beginner bike. We are all forgetting about the zero app and the ability to set the bike up for 0% torque. I ride into work with this setting and it is great for commuting and wont kill you if you abuse the throttle even by mistake. A new rider could slowly turn this up over time to get use to a "bigger" bike.

Thanks Burton I didn't have the luxury of playing with the app so I did not know that it was that customizable. And so you guys know even though I do like wheelies that's not what I was looking for only throttle response that reflects throttle input and the bikes that I rode were lacking that in my opinion and experience.
 
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As for the DVT costing $900 your better off taking it to a dealer and getting it tuned. Unless you plan on making experimental circuits for your bike then you likely wouldn't need it. Or get a group of people who will "share" the DVT and set down some rules for who gets to use it when. Anything you do with DVT could temporarily brick your bike so you would have to make sure to have a backup of your current settings.

If I were to buy one then I couldn't or wouldn't be carting it to the dealer since the nearest Zero dealer is in NH and they really didn't seem up on the technology and the nearest Brammo sales is in PA. I would likely try to learn the programing side of it anyway since that's what I do with my ICE bikes and once you learn you know.

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Found the wheel spin video of Brandon going up pikes peak on my bike. It is quiet but you can hear it if you listen closely
Press the HD button ;)

Cool, see wheel spin isn't that scary if you know what your doing! ;D
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NoiseBoy

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2014, 10:26:44 PM »

Im not convinced they are detuned. AC motors just aren't cable of very high outputs at very low rpm, in the same way that brushed DC motors are.

Also remember that Power is Torque x RPM.   At very low RPM you might have 106lb fts of torque but not very much power.
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Doug S

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2014, 11:08:33 PM »

Im not convinced they are detuned. AC motors just aren't cable of very high outputs at very low rpm, in the same way that brushed DC motors are.

Also remember that Power is Torque x RPM.   At very low RPM you might have 106lb fts of torque but not very much power.

I'm an EE, but electric motors really aren't my thing and I struggle to get my head around all the ins and outs of the various configurations...not to mention the nomenclature, which seems confusing and sometimes inaccurate. But my (admittedly incomplete) understanding is that an "AC" motor is intended to run on a fixed line frequency (60Hz here in the States, 50Hz in Japan, etc.) and at a fixed voltage (115VAC or whatever). This is the motor in your refrigerator, your washing machine, etc. It MAY use permanent magnets, but field coils are generally cheaper so are more common in this kind of motor. This motor doesn't like running on any other voltage (high or low voltages may burn it out) or any other frequency (ditto). You're right about THIS motor having very little torque at low RPM; until it winds up to full speed, it's just not operating very efficiently. There are clever controllers available which can get variable speeds out of this type of motor, but no amount of smart electronics can compensate for the motor's inherent lack of torque at low RPM.

A coil of wire with a current passing through it becomes an electromagnet. If you place it near a permanent magnet, it will attract or repel the magnet, depending on which direction the current is flowing, which determines the orientation of the magnetic field it creates. This works at any frequency, from DC (which is 0 Hz) all the way up to the frequency at which the coil of wire doesn't have enough time to build up any field, due to an electrical property referred to as its inductance. If you glue a few permanent magnets to a shaft, then place some coils around them, you can drive the coils in the right sequence to attract and repel the magnets in an alternating fashion, driving the shaft that they're attached to. To me, this configuration is a "brushless DC" motor, although I'm told that's not quite the correct terminology; it's "brushless" in the sense that brushes are not needed to energize field coils on the rotor because there ARE no field coils (permanent magnets instead); it's a "DC" motor because it works just fine all the way down to 0 RPM. This is the configuration that Zero uses, and in addition to providing full torque at zero speed, it's easy to cool the coils because they're on the outside of the motor rather than the inside.

Sorry for the rather long-winded explanation, but I find that trying to explain things to someone else usually helps my own understanding. Hopefully I didn't screw up too much in my story.

Oh, and you're right about the relationship between torque and power. In common units, horsepower equals torque (in ft-lbs) times RPM divided by 5250, if memory serves. When talking about vehicle performance, you're almost invariably going to be torque-limited at low speeds and power-limited at high speeds, with some transition speed where the torque and power limits are equal.
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Richard230

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Re: Zero S test ride
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2014, 04:17:45 AM »

Just to add to the conversation, power (as mentioned) is what does work (and moves you along).  So torque without rpm isn't going to move you.  You need torque and rpm to produce power which results in movement, acceleration and then velocity.  You don't need to spin up an electric motor to 10K rpm with the clutch out, then slip the clutch to prevent stalling, as you do with an IC motorcycle, but at low speed it still takes a while to get moving quickly on an EV. 
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