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[mikeisted]

Hi all,

I'm hoping that someone may be able to shed some light on an issue I have with my ZF9.

All has been well until 2 days ago when the display went from full to empty in a few hundred yards, about 3 miles into my journey to work.  I managed to ride back at a crawl, but despite plugging in, the indicated charge remains on zero.

Here are the various indicators:

Unplugged, the bms flashes single red for empty battery.  Plugged in, it flashes red, then 123 green for a while, then alternating green for battery balancing.

The ignition powers up normally, just showing no battery charge.  The bike will run, but I have only tried a few hundred yards.

I have noticed on occasion condensation in the BMS window.  I purchased the bike here in the UK last May and suspect it has not had the new BMS fix for waterproofing.

Two questions for those more experienced:
1. Does it sound like a corroded BMS issue?
2. I'll I invalidate any warranty claim by taking a look myself?

Thanks for any advice,

Mike

[denso]

I can't really answer your questions.

But maybe it will help if you keep the battery on the charger for at least 72 hours (or probably even 216 hours since its a ZF9???).
The owner manual for my 2012 X (ZF3) suggest to leave the battery on the charger for 72 hours as often as possible for balancing.

Maybe its just some cells in your pack that came "too far out of range" that cause the BMS to shut down power and make your fuel gauge display show "empty".

I once had 4 bars on the display and all of a sudden it went to "empty". In the aftermath, unbalanced cells could have been the reason for this. But I still don't know for sure... Back then I only charged untill "full" most of the time.

Maybe you allready knew (and tried) this, sorry if this is advice doesn't help.

Good luck!

[mikeisted]

Thanks for the message.

I powered the bike on again today and after going through the display sequence as usual, the display warning light gave the 2-4 warning (for the first time) and disabled the throttle.  I think from other threads this sounds like the BMS failure due to damp and resulting corrosion.

Indicated battery level still zero.  The bike is always plugged in, but your comments on balancing may be right - it has spent a great deal of time balancing. I'll try to reset the BMS and see if that makes a difference before anything else.

Cheers

Mike

[mikeisted]

Contacted Roger at Street bike in Birmingham today.  Really helpful guy and is going to contact Zero directly.  Fingers crossed...

[mikeisted]

So bike is with Streetbike now.  Again they have been very helpful.  Battery is flat and bike still has old BMS.  Awaiting discussion with Zero to see what is the best way forward.

[mikeisted]

Ok so the news overall is not great. 

But first the better news.  Zero have offered to replace the BMS board with the new one, which had not been previously replaced. 

However the battery is apparently also dead.  I had always thought these were separately warrantied for 200k or so, but Zero maintain they are only covered by the standard 2yr warranty for the 2012 model.  This ran out about two weeks after I purchased the bike (as an ex-demo) in May 2014.   Zero have offered to meet me halfway with a battery replacement, which will still cost me £3950 after shipping and fitting, or subsidise the purchase of a new bike.  Unfortunately, as someone who was made redundant recently, I don't have the money to do either.  The whole point of the electric bike was to save money on running costs...

I am completely stunned that Zero seem to be content that the bike has failed after only 3500 miles or so.  I know of 12 (2012) bikes in the UK, and at least one other has done the same thing.  That's quite a high failure rate.  Even if I could afford to trade up, I don't think I could convince my family that we can have confidence in Zero to help through any future issues.

So I have asked Streetbike (again, who have done as much as they can) to replace the BMS and I shall have to tackle the battery issue myself.  Any advice welcome!!

As far as Zero are concerned, I shall contact them again to see if they would be prepared to actually fix the problem given the circumstances....

Thanks all in advance of any advice,

Disillusioned...

Mike

[Cortezdtv]

How many miles on the bike?

[mikeisted]

3500 miles.  The first 1500 were by the (ex) dealer.  The bike was in mint condition, kept on charge and well looked after.  I have put on 2000 miles since May in UK conditions, although we have had a very good summer.  The bike has of course got wet, but again I have maintained it well, kept it on charge etc etc. 

Thanks for asking.

[peter]

Mike,

Doesn't BMS stand for Battery Management System? If Zero accept that the BMS replacement is a warranty issue, how is it that the thing it manages (i.e. the battery) isn't? Seems very odd.

However, if pursuing warranty options doesn't work - is there a university or tech school locally where you could take the battery and get some keen young electrical engineering students to see it as a learning experience? The battery might not be really dead, just dead enough for it to not charge now. Maybe they could bring it back to life? If the battery's no good as it is, what do you have to lose? (Unless you're an electrical engineer yourself, in which case forget this).

Peter

[mikeisted]

Well - thanks for the interest everyone and yes, Peter, your thought on fixing the battery is right on the money.

The guys at Streetbike made some further enquiries on the analysis of the bike and I understand that cell 17 is showing dead.  I have asked they replace the BMS (which Zero will do gratis) and then see if it makes any difference to the battery charging issue.  However, the bike needs to start up normally (i.e. with a working battery) in order to replace the BMS.  Bingo - Catch 22 methinks.

Streetbike are now asking Zero if they might ship a new cell instead of the whole battery.  I do have a degree in Physics (which of course may not mean anything!), so I would consider replacing the cell myself if absolutely necessary (there are some very helpful threads on this issue).  I might know this by the weekend.

Regards to all,

Mike

[mikeisted]

Quick update:  I'm in discussion with Zero Europe who at present are repeating their current offer of a replacement of the BMS and a battery for approx £3450.  Whilst I am unhappy with the situation, at least we have a dialogue going....

[mikeisted]

Just to say thanks to those that have messaged me directly with advice, suggestions and encouragement.  I am escalating the issue within Zero Europe and to USA management to try to find a way forward.   BTW, I believe the 2012 had 20Ah pouch cells from EIG.  Are EIG still in business and does anyone know if their cells are still available?

Cheers.

[mikeisted]

So good news. Zero have agreed to replace the battery on my bike and at no cost.  They will also replace the BMS and improve the waterproofing.

I was called by Umberto Uccelli, the new MD here in Europe.  He struck me as a genuine guy who is taking customer care seriously.  That obviously bodes well for the future.

He was also clear that he intends to bring Zero back to the UK, which is great.  No timescale as yet.

Anyway, just (again!) to thank you guys for your support.  I'll let you know when the bike gets back from Holland. ;-)

[mikeisted]

My bike is back with a battery replacement and weatherproof BMS, all free of charge.  Its beenn very cold and somewhat wet, so I have only been out a couple of times and covered around 100 miles but initial impressions are that the bike is like new again. 

I had some Bridgestone BT45 tyres fitted and they have transformed the feel of the bike.  It feels surefooted now, even in very heavy rain.

Thanks to Street Bike in the UK, Danny van den Horst in the Netherlands and especially to Umberto Uccelli who made it possible for me to get back on the road.

[Richard230]

Congratulations Mike.  It is good to hear about a case of Zero warranty service that works to the customer's satisfaction.  I guess it just takes time to ship parts from CA to the UK.  Hopefully, Zero will some day lay in a stock of spare parts in each country where they market their bikes instead of needing to ship them directly from the factory.

Speaking of shipping parts: I was visiting my BMW dealer yesterday and they were telling me that shipping into and out of the U.S. West Coast is becoming a real problem lately.  The dock workers are on a slow-down over their contract negotiations and trade into and out of the country is way up this year.  This has lead to huge delays in imports and exports, with some shipments taking months longer to arrive than expected.  News reports show container ships clogging West Coast harbors and many ships just sitting out in the Ocean waiting for their turn to be offloaded.