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[vchampain]

All,

The belt of my Zero 2013 S broke twice in less than 2 months, with a very low mileage (2000 km the first time, 200 km the second one) and for no reason involving the riding conditions (Champs-Elysées the first time, rue de Rivolu the second, the poshest streets in Paris). In both case I needed a new belt, someone to put it on the bike and a transportation from the place the bike stoped to the dealership.

The fix was quite quick in both case. I accepted to pay for the transportation in both case (i could have forced the dealership to pay for it because it was a defect), but it seems that even for parts (new belt : 60€) and service (90€) my dealer has difficulties to have Zero pay for it (which is the way it has to go : under any legal system in the world, the producer of a defective product pays for any consequence of the defect).

I do not know if it is my dealer who did not ask it the right way to the right people, the Zero country leader (France), the region leader (EU, in Netherlands) and a global zero policy. So my question : how does it work with US dealers (like Hollywood electrics). My concern is that if dealers have to pay for what they're not responsible for, the risk is high that they might stop selling & servicing bikes because service losses will kill their margin. This would be a real issue (and the reason why I did not push too much). One hint is, thanks to advice from people form this forum, I managed fixing other issues by escalating over the Eu level...

Answers here or in MP are welcomed, especially on how I can help my dealer !

V

[Richard230]

Information on the contractual relationships between motorcycle distributors/manufacturers and their retail dealers is very difficult to obtain in the U.S. (and likely everywhere else).  To my knowledge, having been a motorcycle customer for over 50 years, the way it usually works is that the dealer eats all of the repair costs and then has to apply to the manufacturer or distributor for reimbursement.  I believe that they usually have a system whereby they obtain approval to perform the repair before the work is performed.  This is done either by an automated system or by a phone call to a factory representative.  After they obtain the approval, they eat the cost of the repair and then sit back and wait for the check to arrive.  And you know how long that can take.  Naturally, their reimbursement is going to be less than they would have charged the customer if the work was not under warranty and he was picking up the cost.  (This is starting to sound like medical insurance.)

In the case of a major official recall, such as what BMW is going though this summer with the defective rear shock strut on the new 2014 R1200RT, there is likely a more formalized system for the dealer to get reimbursed for a variety of possible customer and repair outcomes.

My R1200R had an official world-wide recall for a leaking fuel line a few months ago and the process was for the dealer to enter the bike's VIN into the BMW computer system, then check the bike to determine if it needed a new fuel line clamp or an entire fuel pump.  Then they had to order the required part from BMWNA, wait for it to arrive (while my bike was held hostage at the dealer's shop) and the install the new part.  Fortunately, in my case, the repair kits came with two different clamps and they had a left-over clamp from another repair and were able to get my bike back on the road within an hours, instead of the week that would have been required if the part was not immediately available at the shop.

In the case of Zero (none of my 30 Japanese motorcycles ever needed a warranty repair) I can only take a wild guess based upon my observations.  I believe that the closer the dealer is to the factory in Scotts Valley, CA, the more "units" that they sell, and the louder and more often they complain, the better service and response they get from Zero when it comes to warranty work.   

[dkw12002]

I think dealers generally know ahead of time if an item is covered under warranty though. If not, they call to make sure.

There's a warranty page for the 2013 S Zero in the manual (7-1) and that does mention the belt and sprockets as not being covered, however the belt is not due for replacement until 25,000 miles according to the owner's manual, so to me a belt breaking would seem to be a defective belt. However, 2 belts breaking in a short time and you are probably looking at something else causing them to break...tension wrong, wheels not aligned, defective sprocket(s), bent swing arm, bent wheel...something like that, in which case, Zero may want the dealer to investigate  further to determine what is causing the belt failures before they pay for another belt. So it looks like you have the inconvenience of travel to and from the dealer, plus not really knowing why the belt keeps breaking and also not knowing what will be covered under warranty. Bummer. I hope the dealer can sort it out and you find everything is covered under warranty. 

 For sure some manufacturers are better than others in how, when, and how much they pay the dealer. 

[vchampain]

Thanks a lot !

You're right there is an uncertainty on who's responsible (Zero for producing a defective bike or the dealer for making a mistake in the initial setup of the bike). And the guys in charge of supplying parts to the dealer seems to look only at the warranty contract, not at civil law (a defective even not warranted product has to be replaced) or a general problem solving view (finding root causes & responsabilties). Probably the process could also be improved (if the part broke early one, a closer investigation would help both Zero to identify early one possible issue & clarify responsabilities).

I wouldnt be concerned if it was only about paying a fe bucks - even if I do not have too. I'm more concerned about not being sure what the issue is (not found), some rigidity (it looks like the cost reimbursement to dealers does not work well) and my dealer's complaining about the fact that he has to pay for it with the implying menace of stoping servicing the bikes and letting customers deal themselves with the issues.

V

[vchampain]

I also hope this guy will help us improve this !!

VP OF PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT
Summary of Position:
Zero Motorcycles is currently looking for a VP of Product Development. The VP of Product Development will have three primary responsibilities: (1) direct management of all four Engineering functions, (2) managing Zero’s Product Development projects, and (3) deliver sound engineering judgment in key engineering operational decisions. This position ensures that the appropriate resources, talent, and budget are in place within Engineering to successfully deliver on its operational commitments, which include new product development and support of existing product. This position is full time and will be working at our Scotts Valley, California headquarters and currently reports to the Chief Technology Officer.
Key Responsibilities:
Manages Zero’s Mechanical, Electrical, Powertrain and Prototype & Testing Engineering Departments.
Responsible for managing the departmental creation of approved Engineering budgets, and ensuring that the Directors operate within them. In order to effectively and efficiently deliver on Engineering commitments:
Manages Engineering human resourcing, including individual growth plans, to ensure appropriate type, quantity and talent of staff are in place
Ensures that solid Engineering tools, systems and processes are in place and maintained, as required
Responsible for the creation of Product Development project plans, according to approved content and timelines, including corresponding Test Plans.
Responsible for the on-schedule, on-budget and on-scope successful delivery of committed Product Development Projects, requiring effective coordination amongst all departments that champion and participate in Zero’s Product Development Methodology tasks.
Ensuring that, in partnership with other relevant functions, every Product Development task activity and its associated timeline is clearly defined, and that the dependencies and interdependencies of and amongst these activities are fully understood
Ensuring that the questions that need to be asked / answered to get through each phase exit review are clear to every stakeholder participating in these reviews
Demonstrate sound engineering judgment in effective and efficient decision making; methodically leads and mentors staff on problem-solving efforts.
Ensure that Engineering effectively and efficiently supports Quality, Production Engineering, Procurement, Assembly and Customer Service; works effectively with these groups to ensure core departmental responsibilities are clearly defined and understood.
Ensure thought leadership in Engineering is allowed sufficient bandwidth and resources to continue innovating, in order to ensure growth in Zero’s value and competitive defensibility
Communicate effectively and develops strong collaborative relationships with upper management, peers and stakeholders.
Create a safe and sustainable work environment that fosters a spirit of collaboration across departments, where people are treated with respect and where work is both personally challenging and rewarding.
Required Education/Experience:
Bachelors of Mechanical or Electrical Engineering; Masters in Engineering and/or MBA preferred
10+ years experience in automotive Research & Developmet, with specific emphasis on team and product management
Good understanding of motorcycle/auto systems and integration
Solid understanding of EV technology
Experience with electrical system development, including PCBA’s, embedded systems, firmware/ software, electro mechanical assemblies, wire harnesses, etc.
Good understanding of manufacturing processes and DFM/DFA techniques
Experience with effective supply chain communication/relations
Experience with process documentation, deployment and management
Proficiency in the use of Microsoft Office tools, especially Excel, PowerPoint, Word and Project
Experience with computer-aided design and simulation systems and methods
Experience with test plan development and management, including regulatory compliance
Experience with PDM and PLM systems
Strong leadership experience in organization, planning, collaboration, communication, and in the development and management of human and financial resources
Skills and Attributes:
Must be able to lead and participate effectively and with integrity in cross functional teams.
Other Requirements:
Occasional domestic and international travel will be required.
Background or experience with motorcycles is a plus.
Licensed motorcycle rider is a plus.
Physical and Sensory Requirements:
Candidate must be able to sit for long periods of time to perform duties, and to walk around and make inquiries from other staff, management as needed.
The employee must be able to use hands and fingers to feel, handle, or operate objects, tools, or controls and reach with hands and arms.
Must be able to bend or stoop down to access equipment, including lifting of items or objects up to 50 lbs.
To apply send in your resume and qualifications to: hr@zeromotorcycles.com. Please no phone calls or drop-ins.

[kensiko]

Anyone here interested in the job to back us with dealers issue ? that would sure be great hehe

[Mike Werner]

It's one of the reasons my deal with Zero France and ATS went South. They are still very young and their procedures not broken in. My purchase deal showed many gaps that needed filling, so I guess you are suffering from the same. The belt becomes defect, and it's probably one of the first, so no one really knows what to do, who handles what, etc.

ATS is a big dealer, but only one person who really deals with Zero; Zero France is small, with their CEO spending most of his time looking for dealers. It's cases like yours (and mine) that will shake things up, and eventually become routine. I just wasn't going to wait, especially 200 kms away from the closest dealer (I don't have any of these kind of problems with the BMW C Evolution, everything is proceduralized).

[vchampain]

Hi Mike ! What was this deal with them ? And how is the BMW Evolution performing ?

[Mike Werner]

Long and complicated. Bought the bike in December last year, it was the press demo one (so it was already there), and in May I still didn't have it. Compounded complications with the paperwork, recall, logistics, etc. So finally I got mad, and asked my money back.

The BMW is doing very fine, loving every minute. In one week I did 600 kms. It's pickup speed is faster than the Zero (from 0 to 100 kph), but the top speed and range is (much) lower than the Zero, so a trade off. Since I don't plan to go far on the BMW, it's not a big issue for range (and for top speed, it's good that it's limited to 120 kph since I have 1 point left on my license).

The other plus point of electric I find, when I'm with my wife, we can talk without having to shout or use intercom... really cool.

Here's the report on the first 500 km

http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/review-bmw-c-evolution-electric-scooter---1st-500-kms.htm

[vchampain]

Too bad you couldnt get it. What it the price of the BMW scooter ? Can you plug it on a normal home plug ?

[Mike Werner]

The purchase price is €15K, but I've got a 3 year lease for €270/month.

Yes, the charger is quite smart, you plug it into a home socket and you use a slider to specify hhow many amps you want to use. The charge plug accepts mode 1 & 3.

[Richard230]

I was speaking with a BMW F800GT owner that I know today.  He was telling me that the belt broke on his new bike after only 2000 miles.  He said that BMW was willing to repair some sort of manufacturing defect on the cogwheels, but was not willing to pay for the $450 belt that needed to be replaced.  They said that all drive belts are a "wear item" and were not warranted by the manufacturer.  That sure doesn't sound right to me, but apparently he just caved-in and paid for a new belt (the replacement parts took a couple of weeks to arrive).  I think he didn't make enough of a stink to get BMWNA to change their mind.   

[vchampain]

Thanks. I also heared this "wear item" point. Retailers confuse warranty (specific guarantees provided by the maker) and basic civil law (if you sell something to a customer, it has to comply with promises/ads/tech info/reasonable expectations. If it is not the case the retailer/maker have to pay for any cost/damage). Whatever the qualification of the item by the maker, civil law still apply - thanks god !

V

[Richard230]

This "wear item" point makes no sense. Retailers confuse warranty (specific guarantees provided by the maker) and basic civil law (if you sell something to a customer, it has to comply with promises/ads/tech info/reasonable expectations. If it is not the case the retailer/maker have to pay for any cost/damage).

V

I agree. But it costs nothing for the manufacturer to say "no".  If you raise a big enough stink, then they very well might change their tune.  In this case, I think BMWNA were just being jerks.