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Author Topic: 2015 Zeros  (Read 9093 times)

Richard230

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2014, 06:53:40 AM »

Richard, since you are often the first to know of any changes, let us know. If Zero does have their models finalized, we need a mole to give us the scoop. Rumors are also welcome. In lieu of that, what is your best guess about what we can expect?

I haven't heard a thing about the 2015 Zero line.  But if I had to guess, I would say that they will have ABS (or at least an extra-cost option for this feature) and a slightly larger battery pack.  I doubt that too much else will be changed compared with the 2014 models.  Just some touch up here and there and maybe some bold new graphics, which I think Zero could use to make them a little more flashy.   ;)   I gather that installing ABS is quite a project.  One Zero employee mentioned to me that it will (or has) cost them about $600,000 to engineer.  So I figure that is what they are spending most of their time working on during the past couple of years.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Hansi

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2014, 06:59:46 AM »

I'd like to see:

- ABS

- a more powerful onboard Charger, 3 kw single phase and 10 kw 3 phase.
  something like http://www.brusa.eu/fileadmin/Diverses/Download/Datenblaetter/BRUSA_DB_EN_NLG6.pdf
  Chademo is nice but useless here in Germany, as there are only a few Chademo Stations available.
  3phase 10 kw Outlets are quite common and available yet.

- a ZF40 Battery ;-)

My wish list as well.. I'd be happy with a ZF20 battery though  ;)
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Le Z Turbo

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2014, 12:43:58 PM »

I gather that installing ABS is quite a project. 

Indeed, I think you cannot take a "standard" motorcycle ABS because of the regen.
I almost had an accident while I was driving under the rain with the original tires and braking regen set to 100%. It was so slippery that everytime I hit the FRONT brake my REAR wheel was skidding (cause of the regen setting). I was on a highway exit and I ended up in the gravel, out of the road !!! Hopefully there was no security rail.

Now I have some real tires and I use "sport" mode when it's rainy

So the ABS must take the regen into consideration which I think had never be done on a bike

Laurent
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Hogwit

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2014, 09:46:22 AM »

It's been said before, but I'll say it again.
A properly integrated charging system that works with the standard public system, for me, that means primarily a fully integrated 6.6kw J1772 charger. Not an external charging system that can connect between them, a plug on the bike that allows the user to charge the same as any other car (obviously 120V is also a requirement). Let's be honest, how often do you discharge your bike's battery terribly far? How many actually have (and use) the powertank? With the zf11.4, you have a 70 mile range (their rating for 70mph highway) so if you take a longer than average commute of 55 miles, you've discharged just over 75% of the available capacity. I'm assuming they list the capacity that is turntable obtainable as the nominal capacity, but I'll make the point with both ways. 75% of 10kwh would be 7.5kwh, and of 11.4kwh would be 8.55kwh, on the standard 6.6kw charger available for cars, you would have a 70 or 80 minute recharge time. That is just under a 1c charge rate which is truly the ideal charge rate, but batteries can tolerate a bit more. How often would that extra 40 minutes make that much of a difference, and if it's so significant, then why should you make that other car charge is 25-30kwh battery on the 6.6kw charger rather than letting it utilize the full potential of the dcqc?
So the short of all of that, all the Zero needs is to utilize the J1772 and Zero can (for the time being) disregard Chademo.
Range increase is always nice, but I think that for most of us, it's highly unnecessary and not worth the price jump.
ABS is good and bad, there's a large cost, and it's something else to break, but it does make a safer ride.
I fully agree, a DSR, the S has the power option, why shouldn't the DS?

I am currently looking at getting a car from the bankruptcy sale of a California based bankrupt electric car company, but if not, I'll be getting a Zero then the question sits as to whether to get a 2 year old leftover that was never used or wait for the 2015 Zero lineup.
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protomech

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2014, 06:42:03 PM »

Hogwit, the nominal capacity is the capacity that's actually available.

It's possible that Zero has been waiting until they can deliver an integrated 6 kW charger to move to a more powerful J1772 onboard charger. The Brammo Empulse 3 kW charger is indeed about 2x faster  than the Zero 1.3 kW charger, given Zero's slightly higher specified efficiency .. this is a useful increase in charge rate, delivering similar miles charged per hour to the recent round of cars with 6 kW onboard chargers. However, the charge rate is still relatively slow - it is possible to tour with some patience, but the optimal travel speed is around 35 mph. Increasing the charge rate to 6 kW increases the optimal travel speed to around 55 mph, which is about right for non-interstate motorcycle touring. Obviously some patience is still required, but ~125 miles of range at 55 mph (supposing Zero offers a 15 kWh pack next year) with 60 miles/hour charge rate should allow for significant expansion of the bike's stock travel capabilities, to the point where 200 (4-5h riding, 2h charging) to 300 (6-7h riding, 3.5h charging) miles per day is not unreasonable.

Consider benswing's experience:

How did this trip compare to the one last summer? [4000 mile trip with 5 kW onboard charging this year vs 4000 mile trip with 2.5 kW onboard charging in 2013]
Even though I have had to make all my plans for where to stay, charging, visiting friends, visiting electric motorcycle riders, etc. this trip has been far less stressful.  The Ride the Future Tour was tough, in part because only 2 of us had Verizon as our cell phone carrier.  I'm not paid by them, but those maps of coverage of the US are real!  Almost nobody could communicate with their cell phone, which led to lots of confusion each day. 

Also, I'm able to travel much farther each day.  Basically I have covered the same distance in 12 or 13 days that we covered in 44 days.  I knew my Zero had the capability to do this, but it is nice to prove it.
Note benswing's longest day was 370 miles, and this with "only" 8 kWh onboard and 5 kW charging.

***

Zero has historically selected sealed, passively cooled chargers. These are not very power dense; 2013-2014 supplies 1.3 kW for 7.5 kg, 2008-2012 supplies 1 kW for 5 kg. Scaling these passive chargers up to 6 kW would be unreasonably large and heavy.

One option is to move to a large air-cooled discrete onboard charger, as Brammo has done. You can see the mounted underneath the tail, along with a large heatsink and I believe fans on the interior of the bike that force air through the heatsink. The 3 kW Powercharger IP67 weighs 4.8 kg, and the heatsink / fan / shroud assembly likely weigh another 2-3 kg, for a total system weight close to the 2013-2014 Zero 1.3 kW passive charger.

A 6 kW onboard charger would likely weigh in the ballpark of 12-15 kg - for a total gain of 4.5 to 7.5 kg over 2013-2014 - and would probably need to be mounted where the Power Tank resides today.

Another option is to use an integrated inverter/rectifier configuration, as with Tesla Roadster 1.x and Mission Motorcycles now. This reductive type charging appears to decrease efficiency perhaps by 10%, which may be part of the reasoning that drove Tesla to move to discrete onboard chargers for Roadster 2.0. Patent licensing cost may be the other reason, though I believe AC Propulsion's patent expired early last year.

Poor energy efficiency also means that the components used for charging will put out a large amount of heat. Zero uses passive cooling for both the motor and motor controller, but may need to significantly increase their cooling capabilities for continuous operation in still air.

It's also likely that reductive-type charging will force a controller change away from the Sevcon controllers. I would be a little surprised to see Zero switch controllers before they move to higher voltage, but I've been wrong before in exactly this fashion before .. with respect to the switch to the 2012 AC motor and 18 series battery design lasting only a single year.
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DynoMutt

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2014, 11:43:26 PM »

I'm to understand that ABS is compulsory for EU compliance on new motorcycles starting in either 2016 or 2017.
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NoiseBoy

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2014, 04:51:55 AM »

Using the onboard rectifier for charging has to be the way forward. Just look at the Renault Zoe. You can charge at 43kw from a standard AC supply! It means instead of spending thousands on chademo charging stations, parking lot owners can just put in the highest capacity supply they can get in their area and the car will adapt. It also saves weight over discrete chargers. What is not to like?
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Doug S

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2014, 06:13:51 AM »

What is not to like?

What's not to like is size, weight and heat generation. Not huge issues on a car (even a compact) but considerably more of an issue on a bike. Also, the rectification/regulation circuitry is the expensive part, so if you can make one big one that services a variety of vehicles, you're money ahead.
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Hogwit

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2014, 08:50:58 AM »

By inverter/rectifier, do you mean using a step up (or step down) transformer then rectifying the ac current into dc?
There are so many problems with that...I have a 1976 Citicar which has that very setup for a charger. First off, if you charge it even in the cold, the interior gets very warm (with the plastic sheets of windows installed of course). If it heats the interior of an awfully insulated car, it would quickly overheat in a compact area of a motorcycle. Also, it is inherently much heavier than an "intelligent" charger (circuit based) which obviously is not ideal for a motorcycle. Finally the charger is limited to only one voltage and one current, the current flowing is based on the resistance of the circuit and it can't be (easily) changed for when a 15 amp circuit is available or a 30 amp circuit or 240 volts verses 120 volts. It is a very restrictive and highly outdated charging type.
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trikester

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2014, 08:51:02 PM »

I'll bet I'm the only one on this forum old enough to have actually seen Tungar Bulb rectifier battery chargers in use. Hey, at least with those you also got light.  :D

Trikester
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LiveandLetDrive

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2014, 04:17:06 AM »

Improved charging and variable regen (and reverse while you're at it) throttle top my list.  The latter should be quite simple to implement, Vectrix style.

I'm a big fan of liquid cooling but with no motor speed at idle you'd potentially need a separate electric pump which starts making things complex and heavy...  Even better air cooling could make a world of difference to sustained highway speed and repeated high-power acceleration or climbing.
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trikester

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2014, 08:50:04 PM »

After adding reverse to my Zero powered e-trike I also put it on my FX. Even though the FX is a light bike I find reverse handy when turning it around in tight off road situations.

Harlan theorized that if I was riding and switched to reverse then normal throttle would give me variable regen. I tried it and there might have been a very narrow throttle opening that varied regen but it was hard to tell. Basically what I got with throttle was my normal regen when in reverse while moving forward, and rolling on the throttle. I had to remember to roll off the throttle when I was about to come to a full stop or I would have started moving backwards. If you have a reverse switch this is a way to initiate regen without activating the brake light. Counter intuitive, however, to apply regen braking by rolling on the throttle.

Trikester
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NoiseBoy

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2014, 11:25:52 PM »

By inverter/rectifier, do you mean using a step up (or step down) transformer then rectifying the ac current into dc?
There are so many problems with that...I have a 1976 Citicar which has that very setup for a charger. First off, if you charge it even in the cold, the interior gets very warm (with the plastic sheets of windows installed of course). If it heats the interior of an awfully insulated car, it would quickly overheat in a compact area of a motorcycle. Also, it is inherently much heavier than an "intelligent" charger (circuit based) which obviously is not ideal for a motorcycle. Finally the charger is limited to only one voltage and one current, the current flowing is based on the resistance of the circuit and it can't be (easily) changed for when a 15 amp circuit is available or a 30 amp circuit or 240 volts verses 120 volts. It is a very restrictive and highly outdated charging type.

Read this https://www.google.com/patents/US20120286740?dq=Renault+charger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w4MWUsLgL5SihgesvoDYAw&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAg

You already have an inverter, the motor controller, onboard the bike. Why have a big heavy expensive battery charger when you have most of the needed components. When you activate regen you are using the controller as a charger.

That patent will explain how they step the voltage up for the battery but we will need one of our resident EE's to decipher it.  I know how you step voltage down without a transformer but how do you increase the voltage for a 400V battery?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 11:30:58 PM by NoiseBoy »
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trikester

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2014, 12:12:00 AM »

That's just as easy as stepping it down. It's a boost converter, not a big deal.

Trikester

BTW - I'm waiting at my desert cabin for a couple of friends to arrive on their home-built electric bikes. I've got my charging outlet ready to go for them. It's going to be interesting to see what they have. I'm guessing it's pedal assist since they (husband and wife) are avid bicyclists. They will be dropping over 3,000 feet from their home 45 miles away in Julian CA. I'm wondering about their return trip with that elevation gain. The temp right now is 95*.
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RickSteeb

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Re: 2015 Zeros
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2014, 07:53:10 AM »

I'll bet I'm the only one on this forum old enough to have actually seen Tungar Bulb rectifier battery chargers in use. Hey, at least with those you also got light.  :D

Trikester
Thyratrons were fun too!
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Current fleet: (2012 DS Recalled), 2014 SR, 2013 FX
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