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[ZeroSinMA]

Ok Zeroheads. Let's take on this latest challenge to Zero's production e-motorcycle supremacy.

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/harley-davidson/scoop-electric-harley-davidson-livewire-nearing-production.html

Too bad Zero didn't pay the product placement price for a Zero in the new Avenger movie that Harley paid.

Hey Zero Marketing: Trust me. It would have been worth it.

ZeroSinMA Livewire specs predictions:
Battery: 14kWh
Weight: 500lbs
Range: 100 miles
Price: $20,000

For the Zero buyer who insists on the Harley badge and is willing to pay the price in $$$ and range.

[protomech]

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/leaked-details-harley-davidson-livewire/

[firepower]

I don't like Harleys, but I like the look of that bike, and will like the sound even better, at least Harley rides will stop being fags (see south park fags episode)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fag

[protomech]

Definitely a competitor with Brammo, Zero and not Mission, Lightning. Lots of reviewers are comparing it to a Zero SR in terms of performance. It's only a concept now, but feels 100% production.

Harley is bringing it on a 30-city US tour.



Some ride reports:

http://www.pe.com/articles/harley-696434-electric-livewire.html
http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/19/harley-davidson-livewire-electric-motorcycle-first-ride-review-photos-video/
http://time.com/2899493/harley-davidsons-livewire-goes-electric/

[ZeroSinMA]

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/leaked-details-harley-davidson-livewire/

So my estimate of 14 kWh/100 miles needs to be cut in half to 7/50, and implies lower weight, say, 450 lbs vs 500.

Why bother making a bike that goes only 50 miles? The market already voted on 100 miles as the minimum hurdle. Not until 100 miles with the 2012 bikes did Zero start to sell product in meaningful volume.

I'll stick with my $20K price estimate.

I love the way this bike looks:

- Mirrors mounted below the handlebars
- LED blinkers on mirrors
- LED headlight
- Long wheel base (trade-off is less maneuverable at low speeds/less teeth rattling over bumps)

Zero Rip-off features:
- Black anodized aluminum frame with red wheels ala Zero S
- Sounds just like a Zero SR

I'll take a test ride for sure.

[protomech]

Why bother making a bike that goes only 50 miles

Something that bothers me too.

Keep in mind that's identical to the Zero S ZF8.5 highway range, and like the lowest-capacity S this will do around 100 miles in the city.

Here are my guesses:

* lower curb weight = faster acceleration. These concepts will be used to put feelers out; they don't need a lot of range, but they do need to change minds. An S ZF8.5 is going to be faster and more exciting to ride than a ZF11.4 if you're only riding for 10-15 minutes.
* concept only; production bike may be available in several battery sizes or a larger battery. Example: 2010 Empulse concept was 8 kWh, announced capacities of 6, 8, 10 kWh; 2012 Empulse production was 9.3 kWh. Similarly, 2014 Livewire concept may be 7-9 kWh, but if it makes it to production (speculation of 2016) it may be available in several capacities.
* nothing official from H-D yet about range, a couple of writers are claiming 53 miles. This is likely correct for the concept but doesn't necessarily signal production intent.

[ZeroSinMA]

Why bother making a bike that goes only 50 miles

Something that bothers me too.

Keep in mind that's identical to the Zero S ZF8.5 highway range, and like the lowest-capacity S this will do around 100 miles in the city.

Here are my guesses:

* lower curb weight = faster acceleration. These concepts will be used to put feelers out; they don't need a lot of range, but they do need to change minds. An S ZF8.5 is going to be faster and more exciting to ride than a ZF11.4 if you're only riding for 10-15 minutes.
* concept only; production bike may be available in several battery sizes or a larger battery. Example: 2010 Empulse concept was 8 kWh, announced capacities of 6, 8, 10 kWh; 2012 Empulse production was 9.3 kWh. Similarly, 2014 Livewire concept may be 7-9 kWh, but if it makes it to production (speculation of 2016) it may be available in several capacities.
* nothing official from H-D yet about range, a couple of writers are claiming 53 miles. This is likely correct for the concept but doesn't necessarily signal production intent.

H-D can't have better electric drive train/battery engineering than Zero, and has far less experience. To compete with Zero H-D can leverage design skill, motorcycle engineering, brand, and distribution advantages over Zero to overcome one or more of the inherent weight/range/cost trade-offs of EVs. By creating a more attractive bike, with better motorcycle engineering (e.g., brakes and suspension), and selling it via H-D's massive global distribution channel with the H-D brand on it, H-D may face Zero with harsh competition in its core USA market. H-D is brilliant at capturing the public imagination, an area where Zero is extremely weak. Zero very much remains a pack of engineers selling features and benefits vs clever marketers selling a dream with the engineering behind the scenes, backing it up.

Missing the opportunity to buy a product placement in a big movie like Avengers: Age of Ultron http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2395427/ was brain-dead stupid.

Movie product placements work:

BMW Z3, GoldenEye
James Bond is apparently one of the most powerful car salesmen in the world. After driving Aston Martins for years, 007 found himself equipped with a BMW Z3 Roadster in 1995's GoldenEye. Sure, it cost them $3 million, but people saw the movie and fell in love with the Roadster. BMW made $240 million in advance sales alone. http://theweek.com/article/index/237595/the-stories-behind-10-famous-product-placements#axzz355wrXfig

The image of Scarlett Johansson on a Zero RS is exactly what Zero needed the public to see. Instead the e-motorcycle thrill image implanted in the minds of millions will be of a H-D version of a Zero versus a Zero.

[Mike Werner]

The engine etc come from Mission.

[Richard230]

Here is another article:  http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-06-19/electric-hogs-roll-across-u-dot-s-dot-as-harley-tests-no-exhaust-demand

I wonder if H-D is going into the "carbon credit" or "cap-and-trade" business?  That bike will definitely attract another type of customer, one that most likely will not be welcome in a "biker" bar.  As far as range goes, most bars are closer together than 50 miles.   

Lots of studio photos here:  http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/19/5823818/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-project-livewire-tour

[ZeroSinMA]

Here is another article:  http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-06-19/electric-hogs-roll-across-u-dot-s-dot-as-harley-tests-no-exhaust-demand

I wonder if H-D is going into the "carbon credit" or "cap-and-trade" business?  That bike will definitely attract another type of customer, one that most likely will not be welcome in a "biker" bar.  As far as range goes, most bars are closer together than 50 miles.   

Lots of studio photos here:  http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/19/5823818/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-project-livewire-tour

They are going after younger buyers with the Livewire.  See:

Analysis: As boomers age, Harley hunts for younger riders

(Reuters) - Harley-Davidson Inc doesn't do much quietly. Its motorcycles are notoriously noisy. Its slogans - "Screw It. Let's Ride." - are loud too.

So why was the Milwaukee company quiet last year when by its own numbers it successfully zoomed past a demographic hazard analysts had fretted about for years?

Some background: In a recent interview, a top Harley-Davidson executive told Reuters that in 2012, for the first time in years, the average buyer of the company's bikes was not a baby boomer.

For a brand defined by the emergence and, lately, the aging of the post-World War II cohort of consumers, that's a big deal - proof the 110-year-old company is gaining traction with a new generation of riders.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-harleydavidson-boomers-analysis-idUSBRE95K0GU20130621

[AustinSZF8.5]

Why bother making a bike that goes only 50 miles? The market already voted on 100 miles as the minimum hurdle. Not until 100 miles with the 2012 bikes did Zero start to sell product in meaningful volume.

For what it's worth, and I'm only speaking for me but have a feeling that I'm not alone in this respect, range was less of a concern than other performance metrics, namely top speed. I wouldn't feel safe riding on highways in my area (Austin, TX) limited to a top speed of 62, or even 75. I said a long time ago that when they can get these things to sustain 80-85mph, I'd be able to consider one for daily use. They did, I did, and now I own one.

[Richard230]

Plus, if you are building a concept vehicle to be used for short test rides, why stuff a bunch of batteries into the bike, raise its cost and make it more difficult to package into a nice styling design?  What you really want is for people to experience lots of torque, power, speed and whine.  After a few 15-minute test rides, you hook the bike up to an L2 charger during the lunch break and charge away for the afternoon session. 

[lolachampcar]

Mike Werner
Link/source please.

[protomech]

Wes Siler interviewed Marc Fenigstein at BRD about the Harley.

"The AC induction motor [designed with input from Mission Motors] is mounted transversely, a la the Moto Guzzi V-Twin or BMW boxer. That gives it the distinctive 'shotgun' look below the [Lithium-Ion] battery. Chances are, the bevel drive to the countershaft sprocket is what's producing that distinctive 'fighter jet' sound. The transverse format allows them to package a relatively long motor into a slim chassis and makes their electric motor a celebrated and distinctive feature, similar to their V-Twin being the central feature and brand statement in their gas bikes."

Meanwhile, Wes also wrote for Wired that Mission Motors helped design the motor controller as well.

Harley did most of the chassis work—it’s been building bikes since the dawn of internal combustion, so it’s got that down pat—but brought in experts like Mission Motors for help with things like the motor controller.

Take those claims with a small grain of salt - "helped design" and "designed with input from" don't mean that Mission provided the components in question.

[ZeroSinMA]

Harley Livewire launch creates media op for Zero. Zero CEO handles obnoxious Bloomberg reporter effectively.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/what-s-it-like-to-ride-an-electric-motorcycle-HYsm1h7nSqa9oVsF_AHZNw.html