Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[benswing]

@dkw12002 ++++++  In the long run the consumer will lose in a lease.

Except when you are leasing the latest technology and want to upgrade quickly and easily in 2-3 years.  I would never lease a gas powered vehicle since the technology will not significantly change in the foreseeable future.  However, electric vehicles are much better to lease right now because you will probably want to upgrade your vehicle when the new ones come out.

[bigd]

Ben, I understand what you are saying. However, where I think it is a bad idea is that you will lose money in the long run. If you want a new one in a few years, you will do better to sell the zero. Im going to use made up numbers because I am to lazy to go look right now ok lol. If you lease for 3 years and pay $300 a month you will have spent $10800 on the bike. you will probably pay around $2000 to start with. Now if it is a $17000 bike you have spent $12800 on the bike. When you turn the bike in you get $0 back. Depending on the term of the lease you may have to pay more (this is very common). However, if you buy the bike, you will have spent 17823 (assuming you get a loan) on the bike. If you sell it to upgrade all you would need to do is sell it for $5500 (which means it depreciated 68%)and you are about $500 ahead by purchasing. If the new bikes depreciate that fast id say not to buy one, period. Leases are really for people who cannot afford something and the companies use this to take advantage of those of us who want to live outside our means i.e. the payment is lower. I have met you and know you are a very level headed, intelligent person and will make a good choice. I will say I may, possible have agreed when they 1st came out. But I don't think the SRs will depreciate as much. Ill even make a deal. If you have a SR in 3 years and you want to sell it for $5500 ill buy it (unless it is wrecked or wore out as you ride a LOT lol.

[MichaelJ]

However, electric vehicles are much better to lease right now because you will probably want to upgrade your vehicle when the new ones come out.

I wonder if bigd and I are trying to say the same thing.

For some EVs, I agree that leasing makes a lot of sense.  I compared the Smart ED mentioned earlier in this thread, Brammo's lease calculation examples, and my LEAF lease.  Among the vehicles in this table, I believe that the LEAF is the best deal, because you're only effectively renting the car, paying less than 20% of MSRP--you could pretend that you bought the car and then sold it for 80% of MSRP two years later.  In contrast, the fantasy of pretending to have bought it and resold it at a favorable price is completely shattered by the example Brammo Empulse R lease: you'll have recovered less than 20% of MSRP.  Seems like one might as well make the additional 8 or so payments (assuming the payoff price is approximately equal to MSRP minus Total lease payments) to own the bike and then see how much can be recovered with a trade-in or a private sale.

EV	$ Down	Months	$/Month	Total lease payments	MSRP	Remainder	% of MSRP paid by lease	Months to pay remainder
Brammo Empulse R	$2,469.35	48	$299.00	$16,821.35	$18,995.00	$2,173.65	88.6%	8
Brammo Empulse	$2,209.35	48	$269.00	$15,121.35	$16,995.00	$1,873.65	89.0%	7
Brammo Empulse R	$2,469.35	36	$325.00	$14,169.35	$18,995.00	$4,825.65	74.6%	15
Brammo Empulse	$2,209.35	36	$299.00	$12,973.35	$16,995.00	$4,021.65	76.3%	14
Smart For-Two ED	$1,999.00	36	$139.00	$7,003.00	$12,490.00	$5,487.00	56.1%	40
2014 Nissan LEAF SL	$1,999.00	36	$295.00	$12,619.00	$35,020.00	$22,401.00	36.0%	76
Smart For-Two ED	$1,999.00	36	$139.00	$7,003.00	$25,000.00	$17,997.00	28.0%	130
2012 Nissan LEAF SL	$2,500.00	24	$158.54	$6,304.96	$34,840.00	$28,535.04	18.1%	180

NOTE:  I can't find a permalink for the LEAF quotes.  Instead, go to NissanUSA.com, click Build Your Nissan, then click the LEAF.

[bigd]

2014 Nissan LEAF SL  $1,999.00  36  $295.00  $12,619.00 $35,020.00  $$22,401.00 Now remember the rebate $7500 that Nissan gets since it is a lease $12619+$7500=$20119 paid and a balance of $14901 the resale is predicted to be 40% or $14008. However, this is the kicker, it is a open ended lease. "Open-Ended Lease   In this type of lease, the customer pays the difference between the anticipated residual value and the market value of your car at the end of its lease term. Residual Value- The anticipated value of the car at the end of the lease is the residual value. Generally, this goes down because all cars use value over time- this is called depreciation." I did notice this at the end of the lease"A disposition fee is due at termination of lease term." This may be another name for open end lease but im not sure. You may be able to tell me a number given to you but this is what I found on that statement "As its name implies, this covers the dealer's cost to dispose of the car. These fees usually are several hundred dollars." I really hope it works out for you but they are in it to make money so I don't see how they would do it in a way that cost them more.

[MichaelJ]

Yes, we'll see how it works out, come time for the end of the lease, but the point is how different the lease terms are.

[bigd]

If you don't mind me asking, when is your lease up?

[MichaelJ]

I hope this is not too off-topic for the forum.  I'll try to keep it relevant.

The LEAF lease is up in October.  This is important to my wife and I because we're going to be making a number of important decisions about our vehicle situation this year.

We each have one ICE motorcycle and one car (ICE car and LEAF) and then there's my Current Motor e-scooter.  A family member might buy our ICE car from us, leaving us with zero cars at the end of the year.  Because each of us are considering replacing our ICE motorcycles with EVs, I'm reading the extremely helpful posts this forum and BrammoForum to learn more about these e-bikes.  However, keeping around some kind of vehicle that's safe to ride/drive in winter and can carry passengers is also important to us.  Our EV options include extending the LEAF lease, leveraging the $1,000 Nissan loyalty credit to lease a newer LEAF, or leasing another plug-in EV sedan such as the Ford Focus Electric.  A Tesla is out of our price range.  A Smart For Two can't carry my wife plus two passengers.

Then there's the deposit my wife put down for a Lit C-1, her potential ICE motorcycle replacement.  And finally, to bring this thread back on-topic, I've recently test ridden both a 2014 Zero S and a 2014 Brammo Empulse R and am torn between the two.  What's stopping me from choosing is that I haven't yet saved up enough for either one, and range--while more than plenty for my commute--might not be enough for the longer (100 mile+) local road trips I do every year.  The dealerships around here will only give me about $3,500 for my ICE cruiser.  I'd rather not give up the ability to ride with my wife on road trips by trading in a $3,500 ICE bike with 120 miles of range and 5-minute fuel-up time for a $15K Zero S 11.4 with 80 miles of range and 8-hour recharge time @ L1 and L2.  Adding the CHAdeMO kit or multiple quick chargers or ELCON chargers to the Zero would add ~$2K.  So why not keep the ICE bike for long trips and wait a little longer to save up for the e-bike?  Because I don't have room in the garage for another bike...unless one of you knows someone who could help me out by purchasing my Current Motor e-scooter? 

[bigd]

I will be glad to offer my opinion on this but some will not like it LOL. I would ask 1st do you have a child(ren)? Not trying to get to personal but I would not even consider not having an ICE car if I had a child. In a few years when the infrastructure and range improves I may change my mind. I think, If you are set on having 2 EV cars, I would hold onto the ICE until Tesla comes out with their GenIII car (just don't know when that will be). About the Motorcycles. I have said on here when I get my SR it will be my daily rider. I will keep my ICE bike for the long weekend rides. I don't know you finances and such so Im stating this on my situation. But keeping the ICE bike is up to you. To sum it up IMHO id keep both cars you have now - can you not buy out the Leaf at the end of the lease? get the 2 Electric bikes, sell the wifes ICE bike and the e-scooter (no need for it with the Zero). The only question to me is why are you getting rid of the ICE car?

[bigd]

Now about my question concerning when the leaf lease is up. I would really like it if you got back to me and let me know how that turns out. I would consider it, if the numbers work out. However, I told you my apprehension and want to know if I am incorrect. Thanks

[MichaelJ]

Hi bigd,

thanks for asking.  No children.  Regarding when the lease ends, what question are you looking for an answer to, by the way?  The disposition fee is between $300-400, but I hear it's typically waived if the customer extends the lease or leases another Nissan vehicle.

Why sell the ICE car?  Not because we want to, but because we have a family member who needs it more than we do, and who lives in an EV-unfriendly area.  We don't go more than 50-80 miles away from home in it anymore, so the ICE bikes remain our long-distance road-trip vehicles.

So, where do the e-bikes come in?  The e-scooter is adequate for my daily commuting, so I don't need to get a new e-bike, but because the long-term goal is to make both the e-scooter and the ICE bike redundant, I need to save up until the end of the year for the e-bike with the longest range and shortest charge time.  That's currently the 2014 Zero S 14.2 ($18K) + CHAdeMO (+$2K).  However, as many on this forum have pointed out, L2 charging is more widely available, but slower, so either equip the Zero with one or two beefy but bulky quick chargers (+$2K) that leave little room for storing a few changes of clothing, or get a Brammo Empulse ($17K) with built-in L2 charging support (3.5 hours from 0-100% or 2 hours from 20-80%) and add $1K to buy their roomy new lockable and detachable Givi side cases that almost fit my fat helmet but certainly fit a week's worth of clothing and maybe a few souvenirs.

[bigd]

I would ask how long can you make it with just the Leaf as your only car? If a while, id say sell the ICE car. Sell her ICE bike and the scooter, have you checked to see what kind of trade in your could get on the scooter? Purchase the E Bike as soon as you can to get a good feel for it (her e bike is just icing on the cake). Personally I am looking at one more than other and in a PM would discus that. Don't want to hurt anyone's feeling. This would give you a little time to ponder on the next car and have a chance to see if you like the E bike for everyday. Hey if you only have one ICE bike in the garage, you are greener than most