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[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I was thinking about my dream of owning an affordable version of the ETracer, and checked on Lit Motors website. I found it notable that the FAQ under "How much will the C-1 cost to own and operate? What maintenance will be necessary?" has a price comparison with the Zero S 11.4 with a power pack, but it mainly compares itself to Tesla and the Nissan Leaf.

I think that's an interesting marketing angle: Lit is trying to convey increased range and comfort at the expense of motorcycle controllability, and picked Zero and the Leaf as the nearest practical vehicles in price to features. I'm personally disconcerted by a vehicle where I can't control the balance in my feet, but living in the Pacific Northwest, the weather protection and passenger comfort would be a big deal for me.


Lit projects production to start in Q4 2014, so it'll be a year before these have some real world usage. I hope one would be available to test, as buyer trust with a new technology like this is pretty important.


Any thoughts? Has anyone here placed a deposit?

[Richard230]

The local SF bike magazine, City Bike, has been trying to acquire more on-site information about Lit Motors.  So far, they seem to think Lit is more Lint than a company that is going to be able to build anything for sale to the public any time soon.    Whatever you do, don't hold your breath until the vehicle reaches the market - if it ever does.   

[WindRider]

I think it is interested to see the Range numbers.   The LIT goes a lot farther on less battery that the Zero due to its aero shell.   200 miles is such a nice round number.... makes me question how real it is?

Looks interesting but I would still prefer to ride a motorcycle than drive a car and I would classify this vehicle as driving a car even if is balanced on 2 wheels.   If I must drive a car I will take one with 4 wheels.

[protomech]

I'm not sure the Lit will ultimately be significantly more aerodynamic than the Zero. The drag coefficient will be better, despite the unfaired front wheel - but it also has a larger frontal area. Highway range is still probably a little better than the ZF11.4 bike - figure 80-90 miles optimistically.

The C1 also is almost twice as heavy as the Zero, and I bet this weight increases quite a bit as the bike goes to production. The gyros will require more power at lower speeds - I'd be surprised if the C1 got more than 110-120 miles in the city. 200 miles seems ludicrous.

I'd love to be proven wrong - there's a lot to like about the C1 in theory - but they make a lot of bold claims and haven't really backed them up IMO.

[MichaelJ]

Any thoughts? Has anyone here placed a deposit?

Deposit?  Yes, my wife did.  She gets jealous when I get a toy that's newer than hers, and she knows I'm saving up for a Zero.    She put down only a small deposit for reasons similar to everyone here--the unknowns of a v1 vehicle from an unproven manufacturer.

I hear they're already almost a year behind schedule (production was supposed to begin in early 2014) and the promotional videos don't show any cornering, hill climbing, or high-speed travel.  We were pleasantly surprised to see a Zero PR video showing a bike going UP Lombard Street.  We'd love to see Lit Motors publish a similar video to demonstrate hill climbing and handling.  At least Lit published a video of the C-1 backing out of a parking spot...but didn't go so far as to show it turning to align with the flow of traffic.

In the FAQ, under the heading "What can you tell me about the battery?", they claim that "the C-1 will also be able to use higher voltage DC quick charge stations", which Zero currently cannot.  If that claim is true, along with their 200 mile city range claim (let's say shy of 100 miles @ 70 mph), that's still better than the ZF14.2's 88 miles @ 70 mph), and more likely to get me over the Cascade mountain range for a short day trip with a comfortable battery margin.  But is that $3K worth of better?  Like you I don't have enough information yet to make a decision.

And if my wife gets one and likes it, I'll be torn and want to ride one, too!

[protomech]

Here's a visual comparison, roughly to scale, of a Zero S versus the C1.

As a ballpark, I'd say the Lit C1 has approximately 50% more frontal area than the Zero, and probably 35-45% of the coefficient of drag. So total drag is approximately 52 to 67% as high as the Zero .. call it 60% for a ballpark figure.

Rolling resistance is probably about twice as high for the C1, between the weight and the wider rubber.

At 70 mph, aero drag on the Zero S uses about 8 kW of power, rolling resistance uses about 2 kW, 10 kW total. So the Lit should be around 5 kW drag, 4 kW rolling resistance, 9 kW total.

Again, take it with a pretty large grain of salt ..

[NoiseBoy]

Is there really that much rolling resistance?

[protomech]

Here's a massaged model with guesses. Again, take it with a grain of salt.

2014 Zero S ZF11.4, 150 lb rider
35 mph, 2.2 kW mech, 2.6 kW elec, 135 miles
55 mph, 5.0 kW mech, 5.9 kW elec, 93 miles
70 mph, 8.5 kW mech, 10.0 kW elec, 70 miles

0.02 is a better Crr .. which mean some of my massaging above is incorrect. But here's what a 0.02 Crr does for the C-1:

Lit C-1, 150 lb test rider
35 mph, 2.2 kW mech, 2.6 kW elec, 135 mile range
55 mph, 4.2 kW mech, 5.0 kW elec, 111 mile range
70 mph, 6.6 kW mech, 7.8 kW elec, 90 mile range

Grain of salt, etc.

[Richard230]

Here is what City Bike had to say last December about the Lit:

City Bike magazine finally got to visit the Lit Motors HQ where they interviewed Lit's Chief Marketing Manager, Ryan James.  They saw and photographed their $100K C1 "prop", which was made by the same Hollywood company that makes props for movies like Tron and Oblivion and is designed to "create a showroom experience".  Lit claims that the C1 will weigh 800 pounds, have a top speed of 100 mph and will travel 200 miles on a charge from its 8 kWh battery pack.  The price of the C1 will be $24,000 and deliveries are expected to commence in late 2014.

Lit expects to manufacture and sell 1000 C1's a year. They say that they don't plan to make any money on the vehicle during the initial years of production. They have leased a building for their proposed factory somewhere in San Francisco and have selected a Li-ion battery supplier, but there is currently no battery delivery date.  They don't know if the monocoque body will be made of steel or some other material, like hand-formed fiberglass.  City Bike notes that 12 months isn't  lot of time to set up a factory, order tooling, train workers, work out the supply chain and a thousand other details".  The magazine says that they wouldn't invest in the company, but if they produce a working production prototype they are willing to give it a try. To date, Lit has filed for 14 patents and has been granted 3. 

[protomech]

Hmm, I thought I remembered them using an 8 kWh pack.

I'm a little curious where the pack will go on the bike. The hub motors will help, but packaging is pretty tight.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Any thoughts? Has anyone here placed a deposit?

Deposit?  Yes, my wife did.  She gets jealous when I get a toy that's newer than hers, and she knows I'm saving up for a Zero.    She put down only a small deposit for reasons similar to everyone here--the unknowns of a v1 vehicle from an unproven manufacturer.

I hear they're already almost a year behind schedule (production was supposed to begin in early 2014) and the promotional videos don't show any cornering, hill climbing, or high-speed travel.  We were pleasantly surprised to see a Zero PR video showing a bike going UP Lombard Street.  We'd love to see Lit Motors publish a similar video to demonstrate hill climbing and handling.  At least Lit published a video of the C-1 backing out of a parking spot...but didn't go so far as to show it turning to align with the flow of traffic.

In the FAQ, under the heading "What can you tell me about the battery?", they claim that "the C-1 will also be able to use higher voltage DC quick charge stations", which Zero currently cannot.  If that claim is true, along with their 200 mile city range claim (let's say shy of 100 miles @ 70 mph), that's still better than the ZF14.2's 88 miles @ 70 mph), and more likely to get me over the Cascade mountain range for a short day trip with a comfortable battery margin.  But is that $3K worth of better?  Like you I don't have enough information yet to make a decision.

And if my wife gets one and likes it, I'll be torn and want to ride one, too!

That's interesting. You appear to be in Seattle, too, so our concerns overlap. I am curious about how well this will operate on hills, with increased weight. Overall, it seems like Lit needs to show some more evidence and deliver it before we can take the claims seriously.

I think there is a combination of tech and form factor parameters here that lead to a good touring bike. Lit could be close to it if this really works; Mission in principle could get there after a few years, but so could Zero I'll wager.

[NoiseBoy]

Maybe I am missing the point here but vehicles like this need gyroscopes to stay upright, are fully enclosed and too big to filter in traffic or use motorcycle parking bays, so why not get a car?

[Richard230]

Maybe I am missing the point here but vehicles like this need gyroscopes to stay upright, are fully enclosed and too big to filter in traffic or use motorcycle parking bays, so why not get a car?

Because you are in love with land torpedoes?   

[protomech]

It's not hugely wider than the Zero - approximately 9" wider, not including the Zero's mirrors. Lit claims it can park where any motorcycle can park - it has "landing gear" like the monotrace for parking.

Highway energy consumption should be less than the Zero, so particularly if it can charge quickly with CHAdeMO then it should be better suited for touring.

For example, compare the C-1 to the Zero and the LEAF.

Zero ZF14.2: 88 miles highway range, 1 hour to 95% with CHAdeMO (84 miles/hour) or 9.4 hours to 95% with 1.3 kW J1772 (8.9 miles/hour)
LEAF: ~65 miles highway range @ 70, 30 minutes to 80% with 48 kW CHAdeMO (104 miles/hour) or 4 hours to 100% with 6 kW J1772 (16 miles/hour)
Lit C-1: 90* miles highway range, 30 minutes to 80% with 20 kW DC (144 miles/hour) or 3 hours to 100% with 3* kW J1772 (30 miles/hour)
Mission R 17 kWh: 101* miles highway range, 30 minutes to 80%* with DC (161 miles/hour) or 3 hours to 100% with 6 kW J1772 (34 miles/hour)
Model S: 220 miles highway range, 20 minutes to 50% with 120 kW SC (330 miles/hour) or 14 hours to 100% with 6 kW J1772 (16 miles/hour)

Note how the C-1 is twice as fast to charge with 3 kW J1772 than the Model S or LEAF, even with half the power.

* = assumption

[MichaelJ]

why not get a car?

There's certainly good reason to be skeptical about the practicality of the C-1 relative to a car.  We just have reasons to find the C-1 more interesting than a car.  Our garage is too crowded with two cars and motorcycles, so we'd like to make room by replacing one bike and one car with just the C-1.  If you happen to know of an electric car that has the same or better advertised range than the C-1, for less than $24k, please recommend it.  Yes, i-MiEVs, LEAFs and Teslas are better *cars*, but they are more expensive, and only the Tesla gets better range.