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Author Topic: Glitch on the 2010 DS  (Read 5896 times)

scZero

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Glitch on the 2010 DS
« on: February 08, 2014, 06:01:32 AM »

So after 1600 miles on my 2010 DS I've been hit by the wicked glitch from the west.  Started out where going 25-30 mph I'd have a cutout.  I'd let the bike sit for 30-60 seconds and it would come back alive.  Appeared to occur in the same place, thinking it was introduced by a bump or wide open roll of the throttle in that spot as well as SOC of the battery but then it started occurring in other places where the SOC was lower, throttle was not rolled on fast but rolled on slow and consistent.   Last night it glitched and didn't come back to life until 1 hour later, key off/on didn't do anything, charging and unplugging did nothing, I pushed the bike 6 miles back home and 1/4 the way back home the bike decided to work again. 

When the issue occurs I get no faults.  Only thing I believe is happening is I don't hear the contractor cluck connection I usually hear when I power the bike on after the glitch occurs.  Also last night I had the bike slowly pulse and accelerate forward without having my hand on the throttle. 

I stopped by Zero in Scotts Valley (I live in Santa Cruz) to see if they could flash my bike and help me out a little.  I got a troubleshooting flow chart to help diagnose the issue on my own which I'm happy for.  Simple chart that says if its the throttle, kill switch, motor, etc that's the issue.  However like others on the forum I had minimal response back which I think Zero really needs to address.  For one thing I know they know this issue is out there and its a safety issue.  I actually feel my bike is an accident waiting to happen without this problem addressed correctly so its gone 100%.  I feel vulnerable pulling out in intersections, red lights, and feel that when the glitch happens at a red light that when it turns green a person will hit me from behind and I have no way of getting out of the situation.  I'm happy to give them feedback on my diagnosis so they can help the public fix this issue on their bikes.  The simplest thing I asked was to have my bike re-flashed with the latest firmware, but that ended up in a weird state since they said it wasn't in their databases.  Thats kinda crazy, so if its not in their databases, how the heck does this prevent the bike from being re-flashed?  I love the bike and their new line and the company, but Zero needs to  1) really keep the communication going with the customer.  2) Show interest in the issue and push their team for a fix 3) If any type of safety issue can occur from a defect in the motorcycle, they need to take and show that the rider's safety is priority and without any questions (unless someone opened the bike and tampered with it) fix it even if its out of warranty.  Its a defect and a person's life is on the line.

Ok, sorry for that rant but I know Zero reads these forums and hope they take notes from a real customer who works in Hardware/Software QA and also drives a Tesla which I have to say they do keep up with the communication and have done many goodwill fixes on my Tesla without any question, and when it comes to safety, they want to ensure that's #1 on their list and deal with it ASAP.  I will say I will be buying another Tesla in the future due to this great customer experience.  Hint Hint.

So back to my issue, some things I'm going to try and do on my DS to troubleshoot:
1) Measure the resistance of the throttle and clean the POT.  Possibly this has a flat spot and introducing noise.
2) Reflash the Alltrax controller with the latest software from the Alltrax site, possibly tweaking with some of the settings that people shared on this forum.
3) Possibly a contactor failure, don't know how to test that.  But I'd think a contactor would work or just not work.  It wouldn't be flaky. I'm also not getting any faults which people have noted that when their contactor has failed its thrown a fault.

Any ideas / tips I'd greatly appreciate.

Thanks a bunch.

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scZero

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2014, 07:08:41 AM »

Just to follow up on the Customer Service, if you find get no response via email give them a call personally.  I also recommend keeping the person's phone number and extension.  That way when you call back they know you, your bike, and there's a connection. 

I just called CS and my contact.  He was VERY helpful, insightful and passionate in troubleshooting the issue.  (Opposite of what I felt with the lack of response from email).  I appreciate the time he spent and his enthusiasm and he said if there was anything else I need or help with to contact him on Monday. 

Some things he said to check out from my symptoms:
-Resistance on the throttle, that it should be smooth and check for the resistance.  I think 0-5 ohms (closed to open), I have it written down.
-Motor brushes, that if the motor brushes are beat that this will cause cutouts.  Can take the silver cover off the back of the motor to inspect or smell the motor.  If the motor smells like burning / electrical smell that that's a sign it could be an issue.
-Check the T-Handle of the battery and ensure its firmly pulled up.  If that's not set properly hitting a bump can cause a cutout.   Although in that case I think my lights would go out right!?


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nigezero

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Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2014, 08:23:05 AM »

SC; I also have DS 2010. Apart from brush failure at 800kms, she's been faultless.

As part of that repair I also sealed the tail fan inlet with a new underbelly added two filters and now suck air from the tail, around a new led taillight. I'm convinced that I sucked some dust CBD sand in shortening brush life, and initial checks show now only clean air hits them.

However last week she ran out of juice (flat) despite lots of short trips and some recharging. I'm at around 3500kms now.

Turned out to be the fuse holder at the back of the pack. They are simply not up to the task intended and virtually impossible to access and I've had minor trouble there before.  I made a loom extension and replaced them with 4 DC rated circuit breakers, mounted externally for easy replacement.

Zero have been awesome and agree its about who you know but I hear what you are saying. Support on these faults on older models are far less of a focus and  I'd like to keep her running!!

Thomas lives close and has a 2011, which has had a very similar issue. He's tried everything except the contactor.

When I did this last work, I spent time triple checking and lubeing every terminal in the battery pack and around. These connections are all crucial and a loose one could contribute. Although it's a fiddle, removing the pack is not so bad.

Check all contacts the big fuse holder inside, and brushes and put a new contactor in.
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Doctorbass

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2014, 10:54:55 AM »

If one of you guys need some of the S or DS 2010 battery parts i have all these including the cells bank.

Just email me: stefspk@hotmail.com

Doc
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nigezero

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Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2014, 11:35:38 AM »

Thanks Doc, good to know but a pity I'm do far away I'm Oz. I'm back on the road for now, love how a $2 fuse can stop such a high tech machine.

While I have you, the 2014 are 102v packs I'm told. I'm guessing its nominal 96v and that was to reduce currents ? A pity for me because if makes grid integration harder; very limited 96V inverter chargers on the market
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scZero

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2014, 11:56:36 AM »

Thanks NigeZero for the pics and Doc for being open with your available parts!  I'm assuming the contactor is essentially that Relay looking thing in the pic with the two red caps right? 

One thing is I keep my bike outside, its usually covered but it does get rained on like right now and exposed to the elements although the elements aren't too bad in santa cruz really.  I do keep the motorcycle cover on it in the sun and try to keep it covered in the rain.  I'm about 8 blocks from the ocean but the salty air is not an issue here at all, not like living on the east coast.  My Tesla Roadster is outside and does well out there.

Will keep digging into the issue and keep you all posted.  Thanks again everyone.

 
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scZero

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2014, 09:17:13 AM »

I have a strong feeling its the contactor.  Its been raining all day so no break to debug it.  However I played around with the key on and I hear the contactor in the pack engaging.  I then enable the kill switch then make it live, I again hear the contactor.  I then drop the kickstand and then retract it and once again the contactor is heard.  I don't hear the contactor at all when the DS goes dead and the ALLTRAX Led is green.  I've played with the kill switch and kick stand and heard NO audible noises when the bike is flat-lined.

Will anything else if it went haywire prevent the contactor from engaging and making the distinctive audible noise?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 09:32:56 AM by scZero »
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manlytom

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2014, 04:15:44 PM »

I have a strong feeling its the contactor.  Its been raining all day so no break to debug it.  However I played around with the key on and I hear the contactor in the pack engaging.  I then enable the kill switch then make it live, I again hear the contactor.  I then drop the kickstand and then retract it and once again the contactor is heard.  I don't hear the contactor at all when the DS goes dead and the ALLTRAX Led is green.  I've played with the kill switch and kick stand and heard NO audible noises when the bike is flat-lined.

Will anything else if it went haywire prevent the contactor from engaging and making the distinctive audible noise?

I only hear the contactor clack once. This is shortly after turning the key on, standup/down does not matter. The couple of times I had problems taking out the motor, cleaning and re-timing the brushes seemed to help. Swapped controllers and no noticeable difference. at two occasions I changed the brushes altogether. Unless I get the new S I plan to improve the motor significantly. Either with the kit from pico-amps or a with thicker brushes within the existing brush holder. This setup has been used for the Agni brushed motor working well even in racing conditions.
As for the contactor - I have not replaced yet - it is to deep buried in the battery - the 2011 seems worse to access than the 2010...
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Tom
bikes: Kreidler RMC, Kawasaki Z650, Honda VT600, Zero 2010S, Harley XL1200 roadster, Zero 2011S -- all of them sold, Zero 2014S -- sadly written off, HD Livewire 2020
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scZero

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2014, 11:13:28 PM »

I definitely hear the contactor (when everything is working correctly) engaging/disengaging when I lift/drop the kickstand as well as when I toggle the kill switch.

@manlytom: How tough was it removing that motor?  I heard its a bear, that I believe the right side of the bike needs to come off and the rear shock removed.  With all that out of it you have to somehow to twist the motor in the correct sequence to dislodge it.   How many miles did you have on your Zero when you played with the brushes?  Sounds like the brushes wear out pretty fast on the earlier generations.  Heard at 6k the brushes were worn down and begin to show signs of gouging.   Upgrading the motor sounds like a key idea with these legacy bikes.

@nigezero:  Any tips on how to remove the battery pack?  I'm looking at it, appears I have to start pulling the DS bodywork/cowling off.  Does it pull out from the front and down?   What things need to come off sequence wise if you wouldn't mind commenting to make this task easier.

It also appears the 2010 doesn't have an MBB, where the 2011 does.  This makes debugging this problem one component simpler to test at least. 
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nigezero

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 07:10:04 AM »

SC

Sure;
First off, you should have the bike on a stand so its really stable. I use a typical rear wheel stand and attached some thimbles to the axle bolts.  Alternatively chains and blocks or straps and hang it from a roof, but it will move. In an ideal world, Id have the rear wheel secure to the ground and ropes pullies on the front end so you can lift the bike off the battery. I also remove the front mudguard so you have a bit more space, but beware the small bolts and tricky to re-align; I had to open the holes up a bit and use bigger washers.

Body work comes off pretty easily and intuitively. Only trick is there are 2 small nuts under the top (near the key) that you have to get to with an 8mm spanner. You can leave the bottom/front cowling attached to one of the sides and take it off as a combined unit for simplicity. There are some bolts under the very bottom of the bike under the motor. Don't forget to unplug the indicators.

Once the fairing is off, ISOLATE the battery using the big pull down switch on the LH side. NOTE: this is 48V DC and BIG current mate. BE VERY CAREFUL not to short cables and connections. GO SLOW>

Under the bike you will see two alloy plates. One under the controller/charger and one under the motor. Remove them both - pretty intuitive and a little fiddly first time. NB; I modified the main bash plate by re-threading the two 6mm bolt nut combinations on the side of it, to an 8mm threaded hole so its much less fiddly.

The rear plate comes off easily and provides access to motor connections and more space to move.

The bash plate (once loosened) can be gently jiggled forward with the cables still connected to improve access.

Now you can lay under the bike and see everything easily. The cables and connection points on the controller are all marked, but use a marker to ID them more easily. Carefully disconnect them all and don't short them. DONT FOREGT the motor temp sense cable which is quite small and delicate, plugs in to the top. Has release "tangs" you need to squeeze. (I broke mine last week when I tugged it!). The controller should now be free of connections. NB; I replaced all 3 controller battery bolts with stainless steel allen heads with Nyloc nuts, making access easier, corrosion gone and loosening a non issue.

Now you need to get to the positive motor terminal, easiest under neath or from rear. Pull back the red cap and carefully undo the  8 or 10mm nut and delicately remove this cable without shorting anything.

Now you need to unplug the charger, a big multi pin plug that sits behind and under the rear left of the battery. It has a white locking pin and is tight.

Unplug the battery at the rear where you'll see two big multi pin plugs. They have a locking clip pin and are very tight.

From memory, that should have the battery fully disconnected look under the rear of it to check all cables exiting are disconnected. The controller and charger can be slid out to the front now. (need to twist it to one side to allow the cables to clear the frame)

Once its unplugged, open the carton of beer that will be cold by now and drink several with your friend who is laying on your couch or laughing at your struggles, who is now required (unless you have an engine stand to take the weight of the battery - I cobbled a very dodgy and mildly effective one together using a  car jack and some alloy plate and blocks of wood.)

There are 4 big allan bolts that hold the battery plate in place 2 on each side. Loosen them all off and carefully remove the nuts and washers, leaving the bolts in until you are fully committed. Now, depending on your set up you have choices. Ideally, big solid blocks under the battery and with some shoving and jiggling lift the bike up and back and it should come apart. I use a car jack, which allows me to slowly lower the battery pack, jiggle it a bit, lower it a bit and so on.  If you don't have either, now is the time to put your mate to work.  Get him to support the front of the battery and take the weight while you remove the front bolts (i like them under the bike in case it falls it will protect your battery). Then remove the back ones and with some jiggling it should slide forwards then hit the frame rails, then jiggle the front down and at any point it will simply drop down. Iv'e done it with help but prefer a stand for obvious reasons. If you drop it it will probably wreck it.

Once its safely out you can undo the top cover, then the back cover with all the electronics and the contactor.

Easy.

Re-installation is the reverse but getting the pack back in is a real juggle I kind of crank it up and position my self at the front and push it in using my legs. NOTE - I have found this MUCH easier one you remove the chain tensioning bolt which is very (TOO) close in my case. Once you get the rear holes close youll find you have to push past them and up a bit to get the front of the pack to clear the frame, then swing it all in.

Motor removal
As for the motor, it it easier to do with battery out obviously but possible with it in. Same deal for connections as above, but remove the negative from the motor too too. Disconnect the cooling hose.

Undo or remove the chain tensioning bolt and loosen off all 4 engine bolts. NB; I drilled a a slightly larger hole in the rear brake reservoir protecting plate to allow me to access to upper bolt easier.  Remove the chain and mudguard and the shock if you prefer, but i don't recall that being essential. Its so easy its worth doing and you can lube the joints. NB I found that the spring tensioner on the shock doesn't lock well so my spring was unwinding.

Carefully remove the four engine bolts and start jiggling and twisting. Its really tight and fiddly but will drop out, be careful its heavy.  Re-installation is the reverse. No major tricks except might need to rotate and jiggle and twist to get it back in.

Drink more beer.
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nigezero

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2014, 08:10:28 AM »

SC Forgot to add:

use vaseline to lube all connections and ensure they are rock solid and tight. Swear to god my bike is running way sweeter since i did this on the weekend.

Make sure you properly re-engage the main battery disconnect when you are ready to test - this can be deceiving.

For motor removal tips see here





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Burton

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2014, 08:54:58 AM »

why not use dielectric grease?
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nigezero

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2014, 09:25:20 AM »

Dielectric grease is non-conductive?

But ultimately, either will work well and DG will seal and last better.

I had Vaseline ?
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scZero

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2014, 09:54:23 AM »

Wow, Thanks So Much Nige! 

Can't thank you enough to put the time into creating the thorough writeup and the Video links.  Have to say the motor really doesn't appear to be as hard as what they said it was going to be at all.

Nice knowing what I'm getting into and its very very doable.  The mods as well as the words of safety are appreciated, big + there!

So before I start tearing things down I'm going to find the two wires that the controller feeds to the contractor.  When the bike goes on the fritz again I want to test to see if the controller is properly sending voltage to the contactor.  From there I can deduce if its the contactor that's failing (which I believe) or the controller.  The controller LED is green when the issue occurs which is to indicate the controller is happy although it should be picking up that the contactor isn't working, but possibly somehow that message back to the controller gets lost.  If I don't get voltage to the line fed by the controller then it's the controller that's acting weird.   The key to understanding this issue and where its rooted is that clunking sound of the contactor when its working and lack of it when the problem hits.

Going to look at the schematics now to see which lines off the controller I need to tap into to verify its sending the voltage to trigger the contactor to is on state and create my debugging leads.
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nigezero

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Re: Glitch on the 2010 DS
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2014, 09:59:29 AM »

welcome

Hey BTW, whiel I had it open i also added a HD pair of cable's one connect to the internal neg bus directly onthe battery and the other on the fused side of the positive. This gives me a (direct) fused connection to the battery with a sealed anderson plug hanging down (you can see it on the pic) This gives me un-adultered batt voltage and a chance to bypass everything if needed if voltage crashes below charger start up voltage or connecting an inverter or a DC charger etc etc. No brainer for $10
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