Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[BSDThw]

@Biff Thanks for this advice,

I should have mentioned I charge with 1 to 3 Delta-Qs at the normal inputs and additional with the Meanwell through the high power connection of the battery. Therefore the BMS should be activated?

[protomech]

@dc5dd
You can plug DC power right into the 2013 and 2012 chargers and they function just like they do with AC.  that will turn on the bike, and prevent it from starting to move, and have all the safety features of the on-board charger.

I assume you're still limited by the maximum DC output of the stock charger, as well as needing to provide sufficient DC power (900+W) that the charger does not fault? Is there a way to current-limit the onboard charger?

[frodus]

kinda.... you could put a different algorithm in it that charges to a lower voltage, and it will "LIKELY" pull fewer amps because it's not pulling to that higher voltage. There's no direct current control that I know of, it's all based on the algorithm.

@BSDThw,
If you're directly connected to the battery, how does your BMS tell the chargers to stop charging when one cell hits HVC? Are you using that BMS signal to turn it on and off?

[dc5dd]

@BSDThw and frodus
According to the 2013 owners manual if that is what you have

"Charger-Disable Interlock
When the charger is attached and plugged in to AC power, the BMS communicates with the charger. The BMS can send a signal to the charger requesting that charging terminates immediately. When the charger is disabled, the indicator lights on the charger displays that charging has stopped.
There are two conditions that cause the BMS to disable charging:
1. Too hot
The BMS detects an internal power pack temperature above 131°F (55°C).
2. Too cold
The BMS detects an internal power pack temperature below 32°F(0°C)."

Also according to the manual

"During an ordinary charging cycle, when the cells are balanced, the charger (not the BMS) senses that the power pack is full and terminates the charging cycle with a “green light.” The BMS does have a redundant back-up mechanism to prevent overcharging of the power pack. If the charger fails to terminate a charging-cycle when the power pack is full, the BMS will terminate charging itself to prevent damage."

This would indicate that the onboard charger can "sense" the SOC of the battery pack and terminate.  I had always thought that the BMS signals to the charger to terminate the charge???

@dc5dd
You can plug DC power right into the 2013 and 2012 chargers and they function just like they do with AC.  that will turn on the bike, and prevent it from starting to move, and have all the safety features of the on-board charger.

I assume you're still limited by the maximum DC output of the stock charger, as well as needing to provide sufficient DC power (900+W) that the charger does not fault? Is there a way to current-limit the onboard charger?

That one went over my head?  What do you mean?  Thanks

[frodus]

The charger does not have any clue what the SOC is, it's only looking at voltage. DeltaQ aren't that smart. They have a set voltage and current max, an interlock (to signal to the bike that it is plugged in) and an enable line. From every install I've seen with the DeltaQ (the Zero may be slightly different), the BMS will enable and disable the deltaQ if the BMS commands it to.

It sounds like:
- The BMS will disable the charger if things are too hot
- The BMS will disable the charger if things are too cold
- The BMS will disable the charger if a single cell goes too high or the pack voltage goes too high

I also think that:
- The BMS knows when the vehicle is plugged in, and will not allow the bike to start
- The BMS will not give a signal to the charger to enable if the vehicle is in Drive Mode (and even then, if the deltaQ is powered, it would immediately disable drive mode)

The part that is going to give you a problem, is if you're in Drive mode, and try to power the deltaQ, it'll likely disable your controller. If you disconnect the enable on the deltaQ such that the deltaQ is always enabled, the BMS will NOT be able to control the charge if a cell goes too high, if the pack voltage goes too high, or if things get too hot/cold. You MAY be able to disconnect the interlock so that the BMS thinks the vehicle is plugged in, but it may never enable the charger.... see the catch 22?


BTW....  I have a history with installing and setting up BMS, namely Elithion and Orion. Most BMS I've researched all have the same basic features to protect the batteries.... They control the load by enabling and disabling the controller, and they control the charge by enabling and disabling the charger. Everything else is just warnings or data logging bells and whistles.

[Doctorbass]

I might have to bring some more info for you guys.

As Biff said The deltaQ and many other switching power supply based charger DOES WORK with DC at the input.

This is also a great way to get CHEAP Dc-Dc  if you buy some 12V 5A or more power supply like the popular 12V 5A on ebay at 10$. these often take as low as 25v anc can sustain  the rated load. I have found that idea 6 years ago  and applied that method on my first ebikes built

I have posted a video of the Delta Q Dc as input  3 month ago:




Also YES Biff is right, the Zero fuel gauge is not updated if i charge thru the sevcon power input connections.  But once i connect the delta Q, it re-update and correct the SOC succesfully

[NoiseBoy]

I thought the BMS or MBB used couloumb counting alongside voltage for the 'fuel' gauge? If you are charging with the bike switched on then it would just count the charge as if it was regen.  Have you tried using your charger with the kickstand up Doc?  So that the bike is in drive mode.

From what the manual says it sounds as if the BMS can terminate the charge independently of the charger. i.e. with a switching relay.  But I think this is just badly worded.

[BSDThw]

@frodus:

If you're directly connected to the battery, how does your BMS tell the chargers Voltage to stop charging when one cell hits HVC? Are you using that BMS signal to turn it on and off?

I just built and test it but I have adjusted the Meanwell Voltage lower then End off charge because finally I use 1 to 3 Delta-Q in parallel doing the rest . But I have tapped in the Plug of the on-board charger and use Bat+ and BMS signal (white) to feed my Hardware. I will use an op-amp ... to detect the BMS signal to shut off my additional chargers too.

@Doctorbass:

Also YES Biff is right, the Zero fuel gauge is not updated if i charge thru the sevcon power input connections

You can fix this very easy! Just return from the garage: I have used a separate power-supply adjusted to 3.2V (because this is what the Delta-Q does and I have no idea how much voltage the Zero BMS will stand) connected minus to the charger port minus and used a ~20KOhm resistor from +3.2V to the charger port (white ) charger activate line. The Zero was pulling the voltage down to ~1V what is similar to what it does with my Delta-Q. I connected my 45A direct to the Sevcon to Battery in and the fuel gauge was updated
I think I don't have to explain how to use your 5V or 12V Aux  to make 3.2V...

[dc5dd]

I thought the BMS or MBB used couloumb counting alongside voltage for the 'fuel' gauge? If you are charging with the bike switched on then it would just count the charge as if it was regen.  Have you tried using your charger with the kickstand up Doc?  So that the bike is in drive mode.

From what the manual says it sounds as if the BMS can terminate the charge independently of the charger. i.e. with a switching relay.  But I think this is just badly worded.

That's what I thought but the manual specifically says that the charger can terminate charge whether it terminates itself or a contactor is a question but it says this, maybe its from a old manual carry over but I'm thinking they check errors like that.

[dc5dd]

I might have to bring some more info for you guys.

As Biff said The deltaQ and many other switching power supply based charger DOES WORK with DC at the input.

This is also a great way to get CHEAP Dc-Dc  if you buy some 12V 5A or more power supply like the popular 12V 5A on ebay at 10$. these often take as low as 25v anc can sustain  the rated load. I have found that idea 6 years ago  and applied that method on my first ebikes built

I have posted a video of the Delta Q Dc as input  3 month ago:




Also YES Biff is right, the Zero fuel gauge is not updated if i charge thru the sevcon power input connections.  But once i connect the delta Q, it re-update and correct the SOC succesfully

Doc
According to the Meanwell specification the Meanwell HLG-320H-54A will not work with 85VDC but require at least 127VDC can you provide some insight on this.  Thanks

Update 9-23-2012
Well, I called Meanwell USA and their explanation is that the spec sheet is correct with tolerances from component to component they can not guarantee that the Meanwell will turn on at 85VDC in fact it probably will not.  The tech says that he has see it come on at about 110VDC I asked about 116VDC and he says it should work but anything lower he was wary off.  Also there might be a derating factor (kW) associated with going below their 127VDC specifications.

[trikester]

My two cents. I tend to believe the manual when it says the BMS can terminate a charge if the charger fails to do so. If the BMS did not have this ability it would be worthless as a backup fail safe. If the BMS depended on turning off a charger that had already failed to turn off there is no redundancy, no fail safe. It has to have independent control to terminate an over charge.

In the switchmode power supplies that we manufactured we always had to have an independent OVP. It could not even be a part of the main controller chip in case that chip had failed. Our customers insisted on that.

Trikester

BTW - Had a great techi conversation with JefRo in front of the Recapture Lodge in Utah the other day. He also took my e-trike for a quick spin.

[dc5dd]

My two cents. I tend to believe the manual when it says the BMS can terminate a charge if the charger fails to do so. If the BMS did not have this ability it would be worthless as a backup fail safe. If the BMS depended on turning off a charger that had already failed to turn off there is no redundancy, no fail safe. It has to have independent control to terminate an over charge.

In the switchmode power supplies that we manufactured we always had to have an independent OVP. It could not even be a part of the main controller chip in case that chip had failed. Our customers insisted on that.

Trikester

BTW - Had a great techi conversation with JefRo in front of the Recapture Lodge in Utah the other day. He also took my e-trike for a quick spin.

Trikester
I understand that the BMS can terminate charge but it is the manual saying that the charger can also terminate charge that I'm confused about.

[trikester]

The way I see it the BMS tells the charger to shut off when full charge is reached. If the charger fails to do so, then the BMS itself has the ability to cut the input to the battery to prevent further charging by the failed charger.

Trikester

[BSDThw]

When I monitor my chargers they will reduce the current at a certain voltage value. - The BMS protection line will never shut off mine.
When I give a voltage value 3.3V to the BMS it will pull down the 3.3V to ~1V and this enables the charger.
 
The derating looks as it is done with a µC algorithms because my voltage drop down when the current is throttled but the current will get lower and lower. An analog part would regulate the current up again, if the voltage drops?

But if I see the new 2013 batteries hot-plug able at the FX XU... I guess there are switching parts inside, with the 2012 batteries I would like to know.

[trikester]

Yes, the 2013 FX/XU battery modules have disconnect FETs inside the battery case. As also do the batteries for the 2013 S and DS because they are internally made up of the FX/XU modules. So basically all 2013 bikes are FX / XU modules in different mechanical configurations.

Those 2013 S & DS batteries weren't recalled because the outer case provided the moisture sealing for the modules inside even if they weren't properly sealed..

Trikester