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[dc5dd]

frodus
I'm not sure if I'll burn something up or not just throwing around ideas.  If you think about the hybrid vehicles they are a combination of two different but similar system.  If they can charge on the go why can't I?  I just have to proceed with caution and thoroughly research the system as a whole and each individual component.  And then if I plug it in and it burn something up then so be it.  I've tried my best but need to revise my strategy. 

I don't have all the money at once but I'm determine to see this through.  Not only that but also that it is as much plug and play as possible so if I want to yank the fuel cell system out, the bike can still function.

Plug and play should mean something simple if possible so I would think if connecting to the sevcon becomes too complicate then that is not the route to go.  The onboard charger would have been a good idea except the meanwell need at least 127 ~ 431VDC which is way above the fuel cell voltage.  Need to look further into using the onboard charger or plugging into the accessory charger.

[frodus]

frodus
I'm not sure if I'll burn something up or not just throwing around ideas.  If you think about the hybrid vehicles they are a combination of two different but similar system.  If they can charge on the go why can't I?

Because you don't have the tools you need to do so. To truly integrate a system like they do on production Hybrid vehicles, you need to design from the ground up and integrate with all of the onboard equipment (chargers, BMS, controller, hydrogen fuel cell, DC-DC boost converters etc). Hybrids represent millions of dollars in development cost that are amortized over years and years of vehicles sold. To do so on a one-off-basis, you're looking at developing your own VCU, or at least licensing from Zero to talk to their VCU and implementing your own VCU that can operate the hydrogen side of things and also allow "charging" while running. That rules out using the controller for "regenerative" charging because you can't use it as a charger while running the motor. It also rules out the charger (most likely) because IIRC, the Zero won't drive with the vehicle plugged in (aka power going to the charger).

I just have to proceed with caution and thoroughly research the system as a whole and each individual component.  And then if I plug it in and it burn something up then so be it.  I've tried my best but need to revise my strategy. 

That research will help, but you'll likely run into the same problem. I have been consulting in EV's for almost 5 years now and have worked with several startups on ground-up electrical designs. To do this with a Production vehicle where they've already got a VCU inside will cause problems for you. You can't just bypass the BMS and start charging, because if you do have a full lithium cell and turn on the hydrogen generator, that cell starts overcharging. The BMS needs to stop your system when ANY cell goes high, not just pack voltage.... so you need to figure out a way that would allow that.

Also, I don't know if the power supplies/chargers/DC-DC you may use will be useable with their output tied to the motor controller. Motor controllers are very noisy electrically.... Also they need to be protected with diodes to ensure current doesn't flow back into the supply.

I don't have all the money at once but I'm determine to see this through.  Not only that but also that it is as much plug and play as possible so if I want to yank the fuel cell system out, the bike can still function.

The best advice I have, since you're determined... is to talk to Zero and see if they have a way for the BMS to turn on/off an external power source. I know they turn on and off the charger, but you need one that turns on/off your Hydrogen Generator, so it needs to function while in DRIVE. The charger won't function in Drive (or the charger disables drive).

I'd suggest building all of this on a much smaller scale, then scale up.

[BSDThw]

I just started with my 3 * 24VDC  RSP 1000 Meanwell in Series (for a 1012 battery). It works pretty well  - so maybe you will find DC/DC converters you can use in series too. But you have to take care the DC/DC is isolated (and adjustable). Often it isn't because you can built cheaper without isolation;).

[frodus]

Bsdthw... How do you terminate charge? Or do you?

[BSDThw]

I have 3 Delta-Q doing the end of charge perfect, my Meanwell stack will have a lower Voltage than the end of charge voltage + I will use the MBS signal (white line) to shut off if the cells not balanced enough.

[frodus]

Ahhhh, so there is a line that comes off of the MBS to allow you to shut something off. I appologise, I'm still learning about the Zero's. That's really good to know.
 
That might be all he needs..... that and DC-DC boost converter system of some sort.

[Biff]

I believe the Delta-Q and the Meanwells on the 2013 will work from DC, so if you have a DC output from the Fuel Cell Stack, you can plug that into the chargers input power and it will work.  you just need to make sure only turn on the Fuel Cell Stack once you are rolling, and plan on rolling for a long time, because if the chargers are on, the safety systems won't allow the the motor produce torque if you are stopped.   I know it makes the most sense to design the output of the fuel cell to work as a battery charger itself, but simply plugging in the onboard charger is a very simple way to prove that the concept works or not, and has all the safety systems in place.

[BSDThw]

Biff thanks for this information.

you just need to make sure only turn on the Fuel Cell Stack once you are rolling, and plan on rolling for a long time, because if the chargers are on, the safety systems won't allow the the motor produce torque if you are stopped.

I don't need it for my "normal" charging but be interested, do you know - is it the same with the 2012 Model.

Hi-jacking this thread but maybe useful for the Fuel Cell too.

I have cut the "orange-red [Key switch in]" line 1 at the Sevcon and connected a toggle switch (Keyswitch) which has its second position connected to Battery + (tapped at charger + line)
Yet I can switch the Sevcon on and the bike is still off. I now use the line contactor way to the battery what do you think doing this?

[dc5dd]

I just went to Randy's Cycle in Marengo IL and rode the 2013 S model it was great.  By the way Randy is a great guy him and his staff didn't give me that salesman feeling i would recommend them for Zero purchase if you are close I had to drive six hours but that was for business.  One initial impression is that the seat is HARD!!!  maybe just me. 

@BSDThw
I look through the meanwell but the voltage of the fuel cell was too low (45vdc max).  I'm not understanding something doesn't the BMS inside the battery box manage the charge? and all i would have to would be to provide the proper voltage?  From there all you would have to figure out how to input the charge with Zero's safety measures.  The meanwell from 2013 and the delta q from 2013 just provide charge and the trigger signal?

[dc5dd]

@Biff
I wouldn't think that just simply plugging the fuel cell into the onboard charger would work.  I think that would be the first safety measure Zero would put in but there might be a way to bypass this.  Which would  be perfect because that way the fuel cell is simply a charge source much like a portable electric generator.

Biff if im understanding this correctly plugging the fuel cell into the meanwell and delta q will allow the system to charge while the motorcycle is on but only while the motorcycle is on and if the the motorcycle is off but the fuel cell is on the motorcycle safety measure will not allow it to charge even if it will be turn on later

[BSDThw]

How I understand a BMS it is not a charger it will observe the battery parameter and send signals. If it would switch active it needs powerful (expensive) components. I don't know if it is able to cut off the line but I guess not!

The other important job is to balance the cells. There are different systems active/passive... I guess Zero will not tell you what is inside because this is one of the important parts to spent our battery a long-live-time. I think it is a passive balancing while charging. If a cell voltage get higher then others you just "burn" energy with a resistor (it will be a small current - balancing can take 72h when I remember correct) you will wast energy but while charging it will be not a big deal. Active balancing will exchange charge from the full cell to a weak cell.
It works always and your weak cells are "repaired" the hole stack has a higher capacity as the weakest cell, but I only know this in 1-4A versions this wouldn't help a bike using 400A. And it will raise the price of the bike enormous.

[dc5dd]

@BSDThw
So the charger supplies the energy and the BMS supplies the intelligence to charge the battery pack.  If that is true all I would have to do is supply the energy if you don't take into account the safety measures of the system.

[BSDThw]

The charger use a Constant Current / Constant Voltage method. Look for CC/CV and you will find better explanations in the WWW than I can write.
The Charger regulate the current at a fixed value till the end of charge voltage is reached now the current will be reduced to hold the voltage value. If the current goes down to a certain value you will claim your battery as full.

Having cells in series you can't be sure each has the same voltage  therefore if the stack is out of balance maybe one cell will reach the max Voltage (now it starts to be dangerous) before the hole stack reach its end of charge voltage. The BMS will prevent exactly this scenario.

all I would have to do is supply the energy if you don't take into account the safety measures of the system.

You need a current limited source with an adjustable voltage point and I would definitely use a series diode to prevent a reverse current + use the BMS signal to shut off .
I don't know your knowledge of this but playing with batteries in our KWs is not a joke.

[Biff]

Biff thanks for this information.

you just need to make sure only turn on the Fuel Cell Stack once you are rolling, and plan on rolling for a long time, because if the chargers are on, the safety systems won't allow the the motor produce torque if you are stopped.

I don't need it for my "normal" charging but be interested, do you know - is it the same with the 2012 Model.

Hi-jacking this thread but maybe useful for the Fuel Cell too.

I have cut the "orange-red [Key switch in]" line 1 at the Sevcon and connected a toggle switch (Keyswitch) which has its second position connected to Battery + (tapped at charger + line)
Yet I can switch the Sevcon on and the bike is still off. I now use the line contactor way to the battery what do you think doing this?

If the bike is off, and you are charging through the high power connection of the battery, the BMS will not know that it is in charging mode ,and may not balance cells, and may not update the State of Charge (unless you get it charged high enough to use Battery Voltage as the SOC measure)

@dc5dd
You can plug DC power right into the 2013 and 2012 chargers and they function just like they do with AC.  that will turn on the bike, and prevent it from starting to move, and have all the safety features of the on-board charger.

-ryan

[dc5dd]

@BSDThw
Thanks for the warning, I definitely understand your warning believe it or not I used to work as a project engineer for a short time in building substations @ up to 36kV and sometimes we had to do measurements out in the field

@Biff
that was what i was afraid of im thinking that maybe it is hardware or software or both needs to be "fixed".  I wish there was a technical manual i recall there was a leaked document on another thread that i should have downloaded befors it was taken down.