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[dc5dd]

The concept is to take a Zero Motorcycle preferably the Zero S 2013 model and add a Hydrogen Fuel Cell from Horizon Fuel Cell and extend the range of the motorcycle. How much is anybody’s guess but I’m thinking that it depends on the fuel cell wattage as well as how much hydrogen you can store on the motorcycle.  Since a fuel cell is not limit like a battery to its charge but by the supply of hydrogen it can theoretically supply the necessary power indefinitely.  But the fuel cell cannot output the high currents needed (unless it is a very large fuel cell) for the motor thus a hybrid of battery/fuel cell is an ideal solution.  I don’t have the motorcycle or the fuel cell yet I just would like an idea of how to proceed so I’m confident that I have the right parts.  Also since the fuel cell and the motorcycle cost a lot I will have to get the setup in pieces.

The initial approach was to add the fuel cell on the motorcycle and charge while it was parked but thinking about it a little I came to the conclusion that that is no different than charging at a wall outlet, so charging on the go should be used, more on that later.

Horizon offers a 1000W and a 3000W that would go well with the motorcycle being light weight fuel cells (11lbs and 45lbs w/o the hydrogen storage, valves and tubing).  The 1000W is a model H1000XP http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/usermanual/h-series/h-1000.pdf#!h-series-10w-5kw/c1cb8 used in SHELL Eco-marathon competition for lightweight and high efficiently, it should output about 100VDC@10A about the same as the on-board charger of the Zero S 2013 model.  The 3000W is a model H3000 “Autopak"http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/usermanual/h-series/h-1000.pdf#!autopak-/cpor used in trial runs on small two door vehicles in UK with the added benefit of nitrogen purging that should extend the lifetime of the fuel cell by 2 to 3 times according to Horizon/Arcola.  Similarly the H3000 should output about 100VDC@30A which would give a higher charge rate but also increase the weight about 35lbs.  Both of these fuel cells come with a DC/DC converter that will output 100VDC regardless of the output of the fuel cells and also about 90% efficient converter. 

Here comes the tinkering/assumptions and suggestions are more than welcome.  As far as I can see the integration of the fuel cells on the on the motorcycle will require mounting of the fuel cell stack and its components on the motorcycle and the electrical interface to the battery pack.  There is also the required 12VDC power supply for the fuel cell controls but I’m assuming that is an easy fix by tapping into the 12VDC source of the motorcycle.

There should be enough room to mount the fuel cell stack in the “gas tank” or maybe further modification is required to fit the fuel cell there.  The hydrogen tank can sit behind the rider on a rack.  I’m planning on using a metal hydride storage tank http://www.hydrogencomponents.com/BL-740.htm that measures about 5 inches in diameter and 8 inches in length about 12lb.  That leaves the two other main components which are the DC/DC converter and the stack controller/command module, hopefully there is enough area around the gas tank to the seat to the battery pack, and this should also be the area to mount the hydrogen tubing and valves.  The fuel cell needs to breath to convert the hydrogen to electricity so a mesh might have to be used in the gas tank area.  These are the places I’m thinking of but suggestions are welcomed. 

The big unknown for me is how to work the output of the fuel cell to battery interface.  According to Horizon/Arcola I can customize the output voltage of the DC/DC converter I think close to 100VDC is what they can do maybe more if you order custom.  What is the charging voltage for the 2013 Zero S?  If the motorcycle is in operation (moving) and the fuel cell is connected will it charge or is there a way to fool the BMS into charging even if it is being used?  I know from the manual and reading on the forum that the motorcycle has safety features and interlocks I need to know and understand these so that maybe there is a way to “keep” them but also charge the battery with the fuel cell while the motorcycle is in operation.  According to the 2013 owner's manual page 6.11 the BMS communicates with the charger to stop charging is this true?  I always thought the BMS just disconnects its main contacts?? 

I believe the beauty of the system (fuel cell and battery) is that it is almost plug and play if you can call it that.  The fuel cell to battery interface is where it gets interesting.

Once again any suggestions/comments are more than welcome.

[JefRo]

A charging voltage of 100 volts will only yield about a 25% SOC, with full charge occurring at the termination voltage of about 116 volts. The DC charging port by the motor, not the AC input, would be the logical location to input the DC charging current but I doubt that the bike would allow driving while charging without some software programming. The 3kW option would not quite keep up with driving energy demands but would sure provide a long range. This could be the future.

[Doctorbass]

You can boost from 100v to 116V for the 2013 using a DC-Dc converter in Boost mode to get the 16 missing volts. but problem is that the power of 3000W can only take a Zero to about 60km/h max. no highway possible with 3kW supply...


you need more like 10kW to run on teh highway...that's a bit more than 3 f these 45 pounds fuel cells....

Doc

[frodus]

And a fairly large hydrogen tank to get much runtime out of them.

Have prices come down at all? I looked at them recently and it was several grand for a 1kw setup.

[NoiseBoy]

You can boost from 100v to 116V for the 2013 using a DC-Dc converter in Boost mode to get the 16 missing volts. but problem is that the power of 3000W can only take a Zero to about 60km/h max. no highway possible with 3kW supply...


you need more like 10kW to run on teh highway...that's a bit more than 3 f these 45 pounds fuel cells....

Doc

You are thinking of it the wrong way Doc.  The bike would run normally because it is powered by the normal ZF battery.  The fuel cell just recharges the traction battery.  Think of it as having a 3KW charger with a very long lead.  It would extend your highway range by 30% and your city range by much more.

[protomech]

It would do a bit better than that on the highway - since your power draw is effectively reduced to 7 kW, and any driving time spent getting to the highway is even more significantly reduced, it would amplify your highway range by 10/7 = 43%. The fuel cell and associated electronics weigh 20 kg, but then you must add a fuel tank, valves, tubes, DC/DC converter, bracing, etc etc.

dc5dd - your example cylinder holds 740 liters H2 at SP, which is 66.5g (I think). The cylinder is just too small and too low pressure (< 550 psi). It could only power the 3 kW fuel cell for 20 minutes (~1 kWh electricity), and I'm not sure it could even supply the flow rate required to operate that fuel cell.

Quantum's Type IV H2 34L cylinder holds 1.32 kg H2 at 5000 psi, weighs 16.8 kg, 83.8 cm / 33" long, 27.4 cm / 10.8" diameter, and can run the hydrogen fuel cell for approximately 6.3 hours to produce 19 kWh in total, reduced by DC-DC efficiency. I guess the entire H2 system weighs in around 60+ kg (~300 Wh/kg).

If the system were larger - powerful enough to allow for highway operation - this would be pretty attractive if you could quickly refuel for a highway trip in 5 minutes. But since it really just extends city operation (~400 miles), I don't think it's terribly useful. Refueling with H2 every week isn't a better option than plugging in to charge every day IMO.

For a similar volume and weight, you could add 4 more battery modules to the ZF11.4 bike, doubling its city range AND highway range and halving the effective discharge and charge C rate.

[kingcharles]

There is a guy over at visforvoltage who is thinking of doing the same thing. Reviving an old Vectrix idea.
Vectrix had a working fuel cell prototype but it never made it to production.

more interesting details in this thread:
 http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13439-fuel-cell-vectrix-rides-again

[dc5dd]

Wow thanks for the responses.

@JefRo 116VDC got it

@frodus the 1kW cost about 6K to 8K with all the accessories, here are the two websites that have the cost not cheap but has high potential.
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/en/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=155
http://fuelcellsetc.com

@Doctorbass NoiseBoy is right this will just be a "range extender" it should extend the range "alot" also you can carry another hydrogen storage tank with you for another increase in range.  The tanks will have metal hydride that will absorb the hydrogen so it is also inert if the tank happens to be punctured.

@protomech interesting argue.  I looked a the Quantum but that was compressed hydrogen (more dangerous) and also the tank was much too big can you imagine going down the road with a 3 foot tank strap to the bike , I'm wondering if Solid-H will make a bigger tank?  As for the pressure and flow rate Solid-H says if you give them the specs they will work with you to get the proper pressure and flow rate.  Hopefully it will not expend a great deal of power to get the hydrogen back from the metal hydride.  For me the attraction comes when you can refill almost like a gas station fill up and not have to plug into anything for an hour or two. 

@kingcharles thanks I'll give that a look

@kingcharles found a website on the webpage you give me and it has the lowest cost on fuel cell that I have seen, Thanks. http://www.thehydrogencompany.com/Fuel-Cell-Systems/1kW--5kW-Systems/13/15/1kW--5kW-Systems.htm

[frodus]

1kw for 6-8grand? Wow... If you have that much money to throw around go for it.... You'd need a home filling station for another 2-3grand (for something that could fill a large tank).

I'd be spending my money on some side cases and more batteries... Or more energy dense batteries. The energy density on those systems is poor and there isn't much infrastructure for refuelling small tanks. Got a quote from horizon just now and it's $11.4k for 3kw. I could pay Zero to build me a bigger pack for that much dough. Or do it myself.

I was absolutely shocked at how expensive these PEMs still are.

Wow.

[dc5dd]

frodus,

I can definitely understand what you are saying in fact I would agree with you on the cost but this was mostly a practical hobby for me.  Practical as in when you are finish it will do something and not just be a dead end.  I went to school for electrical engineering and never ready had a chance to practice my profession.  This project would give me a hobby and let the rusty wheels in my head turn.  One question though 6 -8 grand will allow Zero to build a bigger better pack?  Maybe new battery chemistry?  Sounds cheap??

Danny

[frodus]

Add up a 3kw setup with hydrogen with the filling station and tank and DC converter and see what you come up with. I bet it's over 10k. I could absolutely build a pack with 3kwh that'll fit in a couple side bags for under 5k. But you may just ask zero if there are options.... Thats all I'm saying.

Terry Hershner has two or three zero packs on his bike... Its possible.

Its not really practical because of the efficency of creating hydrogen... Compressing it and then concerting to electricity then boosting get that to pack voltage... Or you could charge a battery at a slight loss from the charger and get near 100% back out. Plus the cost of a PEM system is pretty steep. I've been looking into it for years. The energy density on a PEM system is around 60wh/kg compared well over 100wh/kg for a Zero battery system.

Yes it will work...  But are the costs worth if for you? If so... Then go for it....  But I think an extra pack would benefit you more.

I'm an EE too.....  Nice to meet ya.

[trikester]

Input from another EE. Sometimes we just want a brain challenging project to work on, especially after retirement. Even if it doesn't make economic sense. I'm trying to think of an example, hmm..........................how about converting a gas trike to Zero's drive system.

Nah.

I fully understand frodus. If the money's there, go for it!

Trikester

[dc5dd]

@frodus and trikester

I wish the price of fuel cell would come down too.  I've been waiting and waiting it seems that the individual components are being develop but the entire system is way over the horizon.  Particularly since PEM need platinum for material and that is expensive.

Any thoughts on how the motorcycle management system can be fooled into allowing a charge while riding?

[trikester]

Any thoughts on how the motorcycle management system can be fooled into allowing a charge while riding?

My knowledge of software and programming wouldn't fill my coffee cup but perhaps the Doc, or Harlan, or some of the other software savvy people on this forum, can answer that question. Of course the best source for the info would be from Zero but as the manufacturer of these motorcycles they would be very wary of being involved in customer modifications of their product - liability being what it is these days.

Terry (offthegrid) had a small solar panel mounted on the back during his cross-country ride. From what I understood (when he was telling me about it) that it fed directly to the battery through the external charge connector without charge control (it could overcharge if left on too long). Unfortunately, I didn't think to ask him if it supplied any power while he was riding. He must have tricked the charge controller into connecting the charging port while stopped, but whether it did that while riding, I don't know.

Trikester
.

[BSDThw]

Any thoughts on how the motorcycle management system can be fooled into allowing a charge while riding?

You don't need to fool the system. If you feed your current to the battery line (Sevcon controller to Battery box) it will charge your battery. It is the same as your regenerative braking system work.
The energy source need to have a "week" output characteristic curve or a current limiter!

You can see "Doc" doing this feeding 6kw in the powered on bike. Actually to power on the bike you can use the high current path, it you use the charging inlet you are limited by a 30A fuse and week cables!

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.msg15516#msg15516