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[DesignerDan]

The problem was the main contactor was sticking. I tapped on the main contactor with a small rubber mallet while simultaneously flipping the key switch and sure enough CLICK. It closed and the error code immediately went away and the bike became responsive to throttle. This isn't "fixed" though because now at any given moment the contactor could stick again and the bike would be immobilized. Oh well, we will see what Zero has to say about this.

[protomech]

It sounds like you've been exceedingly unlucky.. or there's some sort of prep or condition unique to your situation (some bonehead at the dealer?) that's causing grief. Certainly others have reported problems, and there seem to be a lot of issues with the 2013 bikes in general.. but not on the scale of your problems.

I know Brammo has some Florida dealers. If you're not satisfied with Zero's handling of you as a customer, then I would pursue a refund and take your money to Brammo. The Empulse and Enertia have had a couple of glitches and hiccups - check out brammoforum.com - but overall Brammo seems to be 100% committed to taking care of their customers. I'd like to see Zero rise to that level of service - I think the intent is there, but the execution is lacking.

[dkw12002]

One thing I have noticed and commented on is that problems with bikes tend to show up almost immediately. I think Dan's first problem arose the first day he bought it. I had an engine stall in a Ninja 300 that showed up in the first minute and Ninja 300s with that problem have never been fixed to date! My Gixxer had thunky shocks that showed up 10 seconds after I first got on my bike. One possible way around that is to buy a demo. That way you get to ride the bike first to see how you like it, and if there have been problems to date, the dealer has dealt with them (or will have to BEFORE you buy). 3rdly you get full warranty and a discounted price. My Zero had 255 miles on it and I had test ridden it a couple months before. Had I not ridden a Brammo, I can tell you I would have been very disappointed with the added weight (110 lbs over my Zero) and gearbox sound and feel, not that those are problems per se. To their credit, I think Brammo was and perhaps still is requiring you to test ride an Empulse r before you buy it.

[DesignerDan]

The only thing I can think of that's different about my situation is I ride my Zero every single day. There isn't a day that goes by where I don't ride it; rain or shine. Maybe it was the rain and Florida humitity that contributed to my sticky contactor? Idk just a thought.

[DesignerDan]

Zero is working with me to get things sorted out. The contactor wasn't stuck open like I thought, it was closed shut. The system didn't pre charge enough and the spark within the main contactor spot welded it shut. The tapping of it was apparently enough to release it. So it wasn't a component failure; the software just needs to be revised and updated.


On future models it would be cool if the firmware could be updated wirelessly somehow to avoid a trip to the dealer.

[protomech]

Interesting that they can fix the contactor behavior with software. An alternative to wireless software patching would be to open the tools and allow owners to transfer software patches to the bikes (like router firmware perhaps).

Explanation of pre-charge:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/precharge-why-do-need-do-do-25419.html

I ride my bike almost every week day, rain or shine. Most weekends too if I'm not out on travel. I expect every-day reliability from the bikes.

[dkw12002]

I never plan to ride any bikes in rain more out of concern of losing traction plus the hour or so it takes me to get the bike clean again after it gets dirt all up in its nether parts. Texas summer heat is a concern for me. Soon I will only ride mornings until September rolls around. I have a bad feeling about heat on the Zero major components myself. My 2011 Zero S motor died in summer heat. Two days ago, I came back from a long ride in 92F sunny weather and the battery pack and motor felt hot to me. In fact, I got a rapid, steady flashing red warning system indicator when I turned the bike back on to ride it later after a partial re-charge of 3 hours in my 90F garage. The battery pack still felt very warm. I rode it anyway. After a stop in the shade for dinner, the warning light was off on the reboot, but signs seem to point to heat being a problem. My ice bikes run (too) hot with the fans kicking in soon as I stop. We really don't have winter weather here. 

[frodus]

Had I not ridden a Brammo, I can tell you I would have been very disappointed with the added weight (110 lbs over my Zero) and gearbox sound and feel, not that those are problems per se. To their credit, I think Brammo was and perhaps still is requiring you to test ride an Empulse r before you buy it.

I'd be way more disappointed if I'd have spent $15k+ on a Zero and then had: Controller glitches/contactor opening while riding, faulty fuse holder, clicking/ticking sprocket, BMS/battery issues, Blown front/rear suspension seals etc. etc like some of the other Zero owners have had......

[dkw12002]

That's true. It does look like there are not a lot of issues with the Brammo Empulse r to date. If I had a local dealer, I might buy one myself. Dan's last post looks more upbeat. Hopefully, he'll get the Zero sorted out.

[protomech]

Empulse has its own set of quality issues. Damage in transit, chain rubbing on swingarm, weatherproofing issues, failed tail mounting, insecure motor controller lug mounts, minor software glitches and J1772 compatibility issues. Any product that ships in the real world will have some number of issues, and the Empulse is certainly no exception.

One major difference is that Brammo is (largely) acting swiftly and decisively to correct quality issues as they arise, and they're communicating directly with their customers. Somewhat ironic, given the dearth of information available to their preorder customers. I suspect Zero's problems are due to being partway through a transition to dealer support; Zero's dealers simply do not (with certain LA exceptions) have the experience and resources to deal with many of the quality issues without reaching back to Zero, and that two-level hop hurts transparency and repair speed.

[Le Z Turbo]

I'm waiting for my already ordered DS to arrive at my dealer here in France. What's worrying me is that the official dealer here is a e-bike dealer, not a motorcycle one.
From your bad experience the electrical problems must be resolved but new firmware. But how can I be inform myself of software upgrade ? Will my dealer be able to do them ? Will he also be informed ? Is there a way to know which firmware is on the bike electronics and which version is current ?

[ZeroSinMA]

Empulse has its own set of quality issues. Damage in transit, chain rubbing on swingarm, weatherproofing issues, failed tail mounting, insecure motor controller lug mounts, minor software glitches and J1772 compatibility issues. Any product that ships in the real world will have some number of issues, and the Empulse is certainly no exception.

One major difference is that Brammo is (largely) acting swiftly and decisively to correct quality issues as they arise, and they're communicating directly with their customers. Somewhat ironic, given the dearth of information available to their preorder customers. I suspect Zero's problems are due to being partway through a transition to dealer support; Zero's dealers simply do not (with certain LA exceptions) have the experience and resources to deal with many of the quality issues without reaching back to Zero, and that two-level hop hurts transparency and repair speed.

Here we see all the problems No one bothers to start a thread on a board dedicated to a motorcycle brand titled "I've never had an issue with my bike." we have no way of knowing how many bikes are effected. Zero claims they shipped 1000s of bikes last year. If you do a google search for zero forum you get this one. If you have a problem with your Zero that you want to make public you come here. Safe to say that Virtually of the owners with problems are here. If its a dozen then that's consistent with Zero's other claim that issue like the glitch impact less than 5% of the bikes shipped. Zero has more issues than Brammo because Brammo just started to ship the R a few months ago and has only a handful of bike on the road vs thousands. Let's wait a year before passing judgement on the reliability of the R.

[Richard230]

The other part of the equation is that Brammo apparently spent quite of bit of time developing the Empulse before putting it on the market. Apparently, they have the financial resources to do that before getting any income from sales to support the company. That makes the Empulse potentially more reliable than the Zero, but maybe not so much on the cutting technological edge due to the development delay.

Zero has taken an alternate road.  They let the engineers build the most advanced product that they can and get it on the market quickly in the hopes that their very competent designers have nailed down all of the problems.  This advances the technology quickly and gets funds back into the company to support further progress.  But their rapid development just doesn't leave enough time to road test their bikes for long term reliability and durability.  They depend upon their customers to alert them to problems and then update the bikes as quickly as possible.  This is a hassle for customers, but it does advance their products faster than using a longer development and testing program.  That pretty much works for "early adopters", but those won't last forever.

Having said that, it is true that BMW (as a prime example) does this all the time.  Their first new models are kind of half-baked and have lots of bugs that are dealt with by their dealers after complaints by their customers.  Just visit a BMW owner's forum and see what issues they are having with the first year models from BMW.  Lots of complaints and everyone knows it is going to happen, but they still buy the first new model during its first year, even though everyone knows that means constant recalls and modifications.

Zero has its issues, but they are still nothing like some other manufacturers.  According to Consumer Reports magazine both H-D and BMW owners report that about 75% have experienced reliability problems, but most owners would buy a new one anyway.  So there you go.   

[protomech]

If you have a problem with your Zero that you want to make public you come here. Safe to say that Virtually of the owners with problems are here. If its a dozen then that's consistent with Zero's other claim that issue like the glitch impact less than 5% of the bikes shipped.

Certainly true that problems are hugely overrepresented vs the "I'm doing just fine!" reports, especially from new users. But I don't buy the initial glitch is limited to 5% of users; I'd claim via anecdote  that we have maybe 35-50 2012 owners that have posted here since Jan 2012, and the majority of users that were posting during the timeframe of Glitch 1.0 posted to say that they saw the glitch. I recall that we only had a few new users whose first post was "my bike is broken!".

Zero has more issues than Brammo because Brammo just started to ship the R a few months ago and has only a handful of bike on the road vs thousands. Let's wait a year before passing judgement on the reliability of the R.

Agreed, if we're comparing 2012 Zero to 2013 Empulse. Zero probably has 1-2 million vehicle-miles on the road with their 2012 bikes; I'd guess Brammo has maybe 100k vehicle-miles on the road with their Empulse.

Both the Empulse and the 2013 Zeros have some initial quality issues. Let's see how quickly both companies resolve those quality issues.

[frodus]

Empulse has its own set of quality issues. Damage in transit, chain rubbing on swingarm, weatherproofing issues, failed tail mounting, insecure motor controller lug mounts, minor software glitches and J1772 compatibility issues. Any product that ships in the real world will have some number of issues, and the Empulse is certainly no exception.

1) Damage in Transit: You're counting shipping as a manufacturer issue?...  Even then, that was quickly resolved by taking parts from another bike and installing. Quick resolution.
2) Chain rubbing on swingarm: This was also quickly resolved (within a week for me). A swinarm guard was shipped to existing customers and self installed, and new ones were installed on all new bikes. Quick resolution.
3) Weatherproofing issues: Only one isolated issue that I have seen, and with some galfer tape seems to be resolved. Brammo is aware and keeping an ear out if it happens again. Quick resolution.
4) Failed tail mounting: I have a hunch someone (maybe not the owner) pushed down on the fender and stripped the screws. Mine is mounted solidly. This is isolated and the dealer gave him a new one to install immediately. Quick resolution.
5) Insecure controller lugs: Isolated issues with 5 Empulse R's. It wasn't an "issue", as much as it was an inspection to ensure 100% that there WOULDN'T be an issue in the future. No one to date has had an issue with this, it was a preventative inspection. Brammo arranged for my bike to be inspected, and while they were at it, updated my bike to the latest firmware. My bike was inspected and updated within days of me finding out about the recall, and they were the ones that called me. Quick resolution.
6) Software glitches: Was it the update for SOC calculation? That's an ongoing improvement area that can easily be tweaked in firmware. One that doesn't effect rideability, but rather accuracy of gauges. Mine was updated before I even knew about it and was done while they were visiting Portland Polaris. Quick resolution.
7) J1772 issues: Was that an issue with Brammo? Or the EVSE? From what I recollect, it was either resolved, or reported to the EVSE manufacturer. Quick resolution.

I'm satisfied with the support I get from Brammo. I think they've put a good amount of money into R&D and the customer support is great for a smaller manufacturer. Most of the so-called "issues" were resolved before they became an issue by being pro-active, as opposed to waiting for the problems to appear.

I agree with the fact that both have issues. I'm just surprised at how long it takes for a resolution with Zero. I mean, Dan for instance, has been waiting almost as long as he's had the bike for resolutions to some of his issues. Is that fair? I just think Zero needs to step up their game WRT customer support. Even just a timely return phonecall can make a huge difference in someone's perception.

Harlan on the other hand, is super responsive with his customers and I know for a fact that he'll do whatever he can to resolve any issue that may come at him. Sometimes though, he's limited to getting help directly from Zero because of where the problem is.... i.e. controller/firmware/bms/charging issues. Still, there's the perception of quick reliable customer support.