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[dkw12002]

Somewhere I read about how many full charges you should get until the battery is depleted to 80% of charging capacity rather than stating it in terms of the 232,000 miles for the 8.5 battery. Anyone know what miles per full charge Zero is basing that 232,000 mi. figure on?

[protomech]

Zero states 3000 100% cycles based upon laboratory tests, to 80% capacity. In theory the degradation is linear, so at 1500 cycles you would expect to have 90% original capacity. Note that 1500 100% cycles are basically the same as 3000 50% cycles.

Zero bases their numbers upon the EPA city range metric. You can easily substitute your own range metrics, ie I see about 70 miles per cycle average, so 3000 cycles @ 90% average (100% @ 0 cycles, 80% @ 3000 cycles) = 190k miles.

I'm seeing some battery degradation already, at least I think that's what it is. But that's another post.

[dkw12002]

Thanks, so if I use the 70 mi. per charge range figure and ride 10,000 mi. a year, that's 143 charges per year and it would take 3000/143=21 years to get to 80% charge at which time your range would be 56 miles. if it's linear, then in the first 1.3125 years your range would decrease from 70 miles to .9875x70=69.125 mi. Not sure I would notice that, but in 5.25 years when the charge is down 5% to a range of 66.5 miles, I would probably notice.

[pres68y]

...but in 5.25 years when the charge is down 5% to a range of 66.5 miles, I would probably notice.

I'll bet that in 5 years those batteries will be technologically obsolete and you would
have already upgraded to smaller, more powerful, and cheaper batteries.
Anyway, for now it's informative to do the calculations.

[NoiseBoy]

Some owners of Tesla Roadsters are now over 200k miles on the original batteries and are reporting less than half the degradation that Tesla specified.  It seems that batteries actually fair better in real world use than in the lab.  There are so many variables it would be impossible to predict it with any real accuracy anyway.

[dkw12002]

I agree the battery will be obsolete in 5 years, possibly along with other things on the bike perhaps even the motor. I suppose it is too much to hope that there will be a cheaper, better battery replacement by then. Zero says to not anticipate huge changes going forward, but to some degree they are along for the ride, same as the buyers. If some new technology comes along, they will have to jump on it too. In any case, I will likely have a lot of miles on my Zero in 5 years if I still have it. I put 700 miles on it in a week and may use it in place of the Gixxer 1000 which I have put 9000 miles on in 5 months. 10,000 mi. on a Zero per year will be easy for me. Riding is what I do.

[benswing]

The main factor that varies from the cycle tests to the real world is the temperature.  A speaker at the American Chemical Society mentioned that LI-ion batteries that are predicted to degrade to 80% after 10 years are more likely to last 15-20 years since the tests are done at 120F, and you run your bike at lower temps. 

http://liteplusbattery.com/can-lithium-ion-batteries-last-20-years/

[JohnSki]

Nissan lists the following as factors that could degrade battery life.

Frequent use of quick charging
Frequent charging when battery state of charge is already high
Too much electric consumption while driving
Long term parking with high state of charge

It appears from Plug In America’s LEAF Battery Survey that a high average temperature could also be a factor.  I believe some one mentioned this here before.  Here is the survey PDF link. www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/Leaf-Battery-Survey.pdf

[dkw12002]

After reading the info about charging a nearly full battery may not be good for it, I began only charging my bike over night. I know Zero says to just keep it plugged in, but I do a lot of 2 mile rides...at least 3 per day, so that's a lot of recharges on a nearly full battery. I now have 3700 miles on the 2013 Zero S, so it has turned into my main bike...although I have 10,500 mi. on the Gixxer now. I'm getting a Grom any day now, so my mileage per bike may drop a bit.....or not. I never tried night riding. 

[CliC]

Wow, looked up that Grom and did a double-take. It looks strikingly similar to a 2012 DS.

[dkw12002]

I guess it does. I am interested because of the 225 lbs wet, very simple to work on, cheap to maintain, or at least it should be. Has just one inlet and one exhaust valve easy to access. Fuel injected, but I think that will be reliable. The drain plug, air filter, spark plug, valve covers are looking right at you. Takes less than 1 quart of oil. Gets 100 mpg or so. Well, probably not the way I will ride it. Since I already have two better commuting/city bikes, I will use it as a day trip bike to wander outside the range of my Zero.

[Le Z Turbo]

I'd like to say that I don't agree with the fact that "in five year our batteries will be obselete". I'm an RC fan and I'm using LiPo for more than 5 years. There have been some improvement mainly other the discharge current (the C number) with the so-called nanotech technology but nothing revolutionary. And nothing seems to be coming out new. I may be wrong but I don't think so, am I ?

I must say I also don't know the technological fact why Zero says to keep the bike plugged most of the time. Alain in the RC tech it's well known that a 4.2Volts LiPo cell should be store at 3.8V for maximum life expectancy. Maybe that's why Nissan say "Long term parking with high state of charge & Frequent charging when battery state of charge is already high" is bad, that makes sense. Any point of view on that to enlight my knowledge ?

Have a good week end !!!

[NoiseBoy]

I always assumed that impact of keeping it topped up was low, you arent going to do more than knock a couple of percentage points off the max SOC each year but leaving it unplugged could lead to a bricked battery, which is obviously a much bigger deal.

The nice thing about the Zero's is how easy they are to live with, imagine if the manual had 13 pages on how the level of charge you should maintain for maximum life.

I agree that our batteries will almost certainly be obsolete in 5 years.  Look at lithium-sulfur batteries in Trikesters thread.  Who wants to be plodding round on our LiNiMnCo dinosaurs when you could be doing 4 times the distance between charges or riding a bike half the weight.

[Le Z Turbo]

Didn't know about this one, thanks for the tip. I've done some googling on the Li sulfur and you're right it seems really promissing. Some manufacturers want to start production in 2014 !!! It's tomorrow !!! Li-air are for the 2020's

[trikester]

Who wants to be plodding round on our LiNiMnCo dinosaurs

Ah, but some of us are still riding around on 1923 dinosaurs!

(My Harley flat twin).

Trikester