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[lolachampcar]

Harlan (Hollywood Elec.) is sending a set of pads for me to try.  He has had good success getting the bite of the R pads without all the drama below 5 mph.

I really did myself on the front suspension.  I started looking at the Mission R and that was followed by putting a call into Ohlins.  They make cartridge inserts as well as full forks.  I think over half the problem with the FA stuff is stiction which rules out using just the cartridges.

i understand why Zero did it but it just seems to be a shame to own a bike that works so well APART from the suspension (and, in my opinion, the brakes).

[Lipo423]

Ohlins is one of the best bets out there (if not the best)
They are not cheap though...

The other option (which would require some testing) is to change the std. axial pump for a radial one for reducing fingers stress, and improve braking modulation

[nicktulloh]

I guess I could understand addressing the forks. My only complaint is the stiction, which is almost unnoticeable in real world riding.

I STILL don't get the angst over the brakes. I couldn't be happier with mine. Maybe it's just perspective. I roadraced for 25 years. I've owned bikes as old as 1928. In comparison to those early racebikes or even '60s and '70s superbikes, the Zero brakes are an effing dream. I don't know what you guys want. I can do controlled, two-finger stoppies on my 2012 DS. What more do you want? It's not like we're GP racing the frickin' things.

Maybe it's just academic or maybe I'm just getting old. Or, maybe I just had some insight. How do the guys who are complaining use their front brakes in relation to the rear?

[Lipo423]

Having own -and ride- several different bikes, I find the brakes on the 2012 models (front and rear) not powerful enough, and very low quality for a $13K bike..but I understand -and respect- that they might be acceptable for some other riders...
This is avoiding going to the expensive double monoblock calipers radial brakes you see in SBK, these are different animals..we are not talking about these level of braking power here.
The 2012 rear brakes are worst than the front one, not sure what you mean with the "use related to the rear". In modern road bikes the rear brake is not used to stop the bike.

[nicktulloh]

Having own -and ride- several different bikes, I find the brakes on the 2012 models (front and rear) not powerful enough, and very low quality for a $13K bike..but I understand -and respect- that they might be acceptable for some other riders...
This is avoiding going to the expensive double monoblock calipers radial brakes you see in SBK, these are different animals..we are not talking about these level of braking power here.
The 2012 rear brakes are worst than the front one, not sure what you mean with the "use related to the rear". In modern road bikes the rear brake is not used to stop the bike.

Ah, yeah, my point. I could understand complaining about the brakes if you're using the rear, but the front? I say again, I can do two finger stoppies all day. What more do you want. They're progressive, they don't fade.

Perhaps you got some grease on the disc. Perhaps there really is some significant one-off manufacturing flaw with your bike. Then again, perhaps you just like to complain.

What, specifically, do you mean by "not powerful enough" (see "stopppies" above)? What specifically do you mean by "very low quality"? If I can controllably and repeatedly stand my bike on its' nose, I'm at a loss to understand what more you want.

Again, I've owned over a hundred bikes, well over, and I'm very happy with my '12 DS brakes. They're at least as good as my '12 Tiger brakes. Way better than all the other brakes in the barn.

So you can pend the respect - just point out what exactly is lacking.

[lolachampcar]

I got the EBC pads from Harlan this morning and should have some feedback later today or tomorrow.

BTW, by not good enough, I mean i would like better   If you are happy, I am happy for you (no sarcasm intended).

[Lipo423]

No grease, no pad issues, no air in the system, etc...
If you have own + 100 bikes, that means you have seen the brake industry evolution...and these brakes are not in line for a 2012 road naked-style bike in power, brake modulation, disk surface, calipers, etc, etc...again, if you are happy with them, good for you! around 8 out of 10 users are not fully satisfied, and that's one of the reasons Zero is not installing them anymore in the 2013 models...and I guarantee you they will not in the 2014 models either.

Could you tell me the number of bike manufacturers (motorbikes) you have seen with the Hayes brakes recently?
Hayes is known in the MTB industry, not in the motorbike one

[nicktulloh]

...these brakes are not in line for a 2012 road naked-style bike in power, brake modulation, disk surface, calipers, etc, etc...again, if you are happy with them, good for you! around 8 out of 10 users are not fully satisfied, and that's one of the reasons Zero is not installing them anymore in the 2013 models...and I guarantee you they will not in the 2014 models either.

Where do you get the 8 out of 10 stat?

I'm still looking for some concrete reasons why you think they're sub-par. Something real - do they fade when they get hot? - are they ineffective in the rain? do they pulsate? are they generally weak (rhetorical since I can stoppie my bike)?

Disc surface? What in the world are you talking about?

Could you tell me the number of bike manufacturers (motorbikes) you have seen with the Hayes brakes recently?
Hayes is known in the MTB industry, not in the motorbike one

So is this the bottom line? You don't like them because they're not on hot sportsbikes? Oh wait, they are ... http://www.hayesbrake.com/hayes-apollo-monobloc-caliper-can-even-stop-ebrs-new-revolutionary-1190rs/

You remind me of guys that I used to race with that spent tens of thousands on go faster farkles and, well, didn't... but man oh man those $4k Ohlins fronts looked fast.

What do you think you're riding - a 150rwhp superbike?

[Lipo423]

You may look at the 2012 forum info for the brakes data yourself, besides the Internet
Disk surface is the area the brake pads bite the disk, which is lower...
I perfectly know what I'm riding, but it looks like you still do not get the difference between a top of the line radial pump with its suitable calipers and disk besides and a MTB brakes manufacturer getting its nose in the motorbike world.

I request to be delivered the quality I paid for.

It is obvious that we will not come up with an agreement...which is ok for me. You are very happy with your brakes, and I'm very happy with my upgraded version...

[lolachampcar]

nick,
You are on a roll.  You go........

Initial bite and overall stopping power were my two main issues with my MY12.  My MY13 is MUCH better and Harlan's pads seem to be getting me much closer to my desired performance.

WRT being crazy wanting SB brakes, yep, I'd love to transfer the battery, motor and speed controller to my S1000RR and sell the motor.  I'd do it in a heartbeat but it just will not work as a retrofit.

Lastly, I installed some EBC R pads which worked wonderfully on initial bite and stopping power.  They would still be on the bike had they not squealed sooooooo bad below 5 or so mph as to wake the dead.  They would be perfect in a racing application where you could care less how much noise they make at slow speeds but on the road they only served to scare the crap out of everyone at the light as I pulled up. 

I know these brakes can work much better given the performance of the R pads so it is simply a matter of working with others on the forum to find better solutions.  I believe that is what forums are good for, at least that is how I view them.

[Marshm]

I was curious for more specific detail on what people didn't like as well.  From what I have read, it seems to be braking power and longevity that is lacking.  I will disagree that just because you can do a stoppie, that must mean the brakes are powerful enough.  I expect a certain level of power with a certain level of pull with my hand.  Not everyone can pull the lever with the same force.  After breaking my wrist, they would measure my grip strength, so I have some comparison and know mine is very bad compared to the average person.  So lighter pull on the levers is a good thing for me.  So it could be that some here that are wanting more powerful brakes are not used to pulling the lever as hard.  People probably have a hard time describing what the issue really is.  As an example, I have a low budget gas dirbike with a rear brake that is not powerful enough.  I can lock up the rear, however I have to really push it hard.  In many situations I am not in a good position and find it difficult to push it that hard.  So I am often ending up with not enough braking power when I want it.   

[Lipo423]

Agreed.
Sometimes it is difficult to describe the issue, as well as having the time to do measurements, etc...
As you have pointed out one of the concerns is the lever pulling force, and the insecure/unsafe feeling you get...this is something you could eventually avoid just replacing the brake pump for a radial model -which I checked- and it looked like there was a certain "getting worse" risk because of the Hayes caliper type, related to the pump flow that would make the system to not work properly... so I decided to change the whole thing...I also wanted to avoid the noise you get sometimes with sintered pads, so the new system allowed me to keep the std. pads with far more braking power, modulation and very limited noise.

Anyway, as I said to one of my neighbors (You may know Alex Crivillé) opinions are like bottoms...everyone has got one 

[NoiseBoy]

I definitely couldn't stoppie my 2012 with 2 fingers, I would need all 4.  But the 2013 brakes are fine, they would haul you up with one finger no problem.   There is no need for twin brakes etc. on a 90mph bike.  My KTM had a single 4 pot Brembo and one finger would stand it on its nose at 100mph and it isnt that much lighter than the Zero in stock form.

I looked at a different MC for the 12 and it can't be done.  They don't make radial MC's with a cylinder diameter small enough for the Hayes caliper, unless you are happy putting minimoto parts on your road bike.

[nicktulloh]

I was curious for more specific detail on what people didn't like as well.  From what I have read, it seems to be braking power and longevity that is lacking.  I will disagree that just because you can do a stoppie, that must mean the brakes are powerful enough.  I expect a certain level of power with a certain level of pull with my hand.  Not everyone can pull the lever with the same force.  After breaking my wrist, they would measure my grip strength, so I have some comparison and know mine is very bad compared to the average person.  So lighter pull on the levers is a good thing for me.  So it could be that some here that are wanting more powerful brakes are not used to pulling the lever as hard.  People probably have a hard time describing what the issue really is.  As an example, I have a low budget gas dirbike with a rear brake that is not powerful enough.  I can lock up the rear, however I have to really push it hard.  In many situations I am not in a good position and find it difficult to push it that hard.  So I am often ending up with not enough braking power when I want it.

It's coincidental that you'd post this today. I'd never tried a one finger stoppie until today and it worked fine. I grew up with BSA Victors and Norton Commandos and GT750 Ducatis so I know what a handful of front brake feels like. I'd agree that if excess force was required, a stoppie in and of itself would be no metric.

I'm almost to the point where I wonder if I should just consider myself extremely lucky to have chanced on a DS with extremely good brakes. That said, the two other Zeros I've ridden (both '12 Ss and with the lighter battery) felt pretty much the same so I don't think that's it.

After 25 years of road racing I got so used to disregarding the rear brake that it takes an effort to remember it's even there. The only time I use it on any road bike is in the soft stuff or maybe holding on a hill at a red light.

I was forced to go to an MSF course in Texas in penance for an alleged traffic offense and was able to talk them into letting me go to an advanced course. The instructor was a nice guy with a fully dressed Gold Wing and man could he throw that thing around between the cones. I was there on my Daytona 955i, not the best for slow speed parking lot work. He and I got along great except for one thing. He was adamant that I use all four fingers on my front brake lever. Drove me nuts. Totally unnecessary. Just like the Zero I could stand that thing on its' nose with one finger. Unlike the Zero there was also a practical aspect as you could brake and have full control blipping the throttle for downshifts. I can't do that with all four fingers on the lever, or not well, anyway.

I'll have to see how the longevity works out. I'll probably go to EBCs when the time comes just because that's what I'm used to.

[nicktulloh]

Anyway, as I said to one of my neighbors (You may know Alex Crivillé) opinions are like bottoms...everyone has got one 

Criville is your neighbor? You live in Spain? Lucky guy. Almost talked myself into going to Laguna this weekend. I decided not too since Moto2 and 3 won't be there and I have no interest in AMA. I do have tickets for Indy 'though. Weird little track. Just watched FP1 and 2. Some great footage of Marquez going through the corkscrew on a scooter with a guy on the back, obviously having a great time. The kid is amazing.

That saying gets a little more specific here and I apologize if I've been coming across as the more specific version. I feel the need to defend these bikes when I think the criticism may be unwarranted.

Take care.