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[BSDThw]

I think I wasn't at the Brammo page for a while, I dig the Engage but now it is no longer in the BUY (better Pre-Order) folder.

Does someone knows if it is still in line or is it canceled?
 

[jazclrint]

It is still in prototype phase.  They feel it doesn't have enough range to satisfy the market, yet.  You can listen to Shelina talk about it http://esbk.co/2013/03/17/esbk-studios-episode-19-full-brammos-eric-bostrom-and-shelina-moreda/.  Fast forward to about the hour mark.  Our conversation was about 1.5 hours long, so beware.  Also ignore the 2 speed transmission don't work comment from me.  It was late and I wasn't thinking.

[BSDThw]

Thanks a lot!

it's good to know, I think the bike would work great in dirt riding. Hope it will come to a finale product.

 

[Brammofan]

Shelina rode the prototype last weekend and did pretty well (4th place) on it, so I hope they are still working on bringing it into production.

[protomech]

The original Engage prototype was largely or completely built by SMRE - or at least it was visually indistinguishable from a similar earlier SMRE prototype with Brammo graphics. I don't think it'll be ready for release until Brammo has laid their design hands on the bike, even if they start from SMRE's design.

Shelina was talking about a possible Parker motor. Parker has a wide range of GVM-series motors, one would likely fit into the Engage.

[ZeroSinMA]

The original Engage prototype was largely or completely built by SMRE - or at least it was visually indistinguishable from a similar earlier SMRE prototype with Brammo graphics. I don't think it'll be ready for release until Brammo has laid their design hands on the bike, even if they start from SMRE's design.

Shelina was talking about a possible Parker motor. Parker has a wide range of GVM-series motors, one would likely fit into the Engage.

It's all a bunch of BS. You'll never see the Engage that was promised in 2010, 2011, 2012, or 2013 as Zero delivered bigger and better bikes.

Unless you work for Bammo, give up. If you work for Brammo and have talent as so many Brammo employees do, submit a resume to Zero and help make great bikes even better, forged in the crucible of strong engineering and business management.

[protomech]

Thanks for adding your particular insights to the thread, ZeroS.

Engage was announced in 2011, not 2010. I'm not sure what torch you think I'm carrying for the Engage. I would not be surprised if Brammo quietly drops the Engage and Encite bikes completely, as two years after the original announcement the Engage prototype that Shelina raced seems to be largely unchanged.

[CliC]

One thing I think this demonstrates is that the affordable, practical elmoto business is hard. Zero only just now has "mainstream-viable" bikes (yes, debatable on both sides, but I'll say it anyway) after 4 years or so of development. Brammo took 3 or 4 years to get the Empulse R out after their own glorified-mountain-bike development period. The BRD Redshift is still a prototype. Lightning and Mission are sticking to rare, high-end, custom-built models.

I admit I'm not intimately familiar with  Brammo's story, and I'm not apologizing for what may have been some excess "optimism" on their part.  But I suspect they are running into the same difficulties as everyone else. And they may want to breathe a little after the Empulse launch before resuming the Engage work.

[manlytom]

One thing I think this demonstrates is that the affordable, practical elmoto business is hard. Zero only just now has "mainstream-viable" bikes (yes, debatable on both sides, but I'll say it anyway) after 4 years or so of development. Brammo took 3 or 4 years to get the Empulse R out after their own glorified-mountain-bike development period. The BRD Redshift is still a prototype. Lightning and Mission are sticking to rare, high-end, custom-built models.

I admit I'm not intimately familiar with  Brammo's story, and I'm not apologizing for what may have been some excess "optimism" on their part.  But I suspect they are running into the same difficulties as everyone else. And they may want to breathe a little after the Empulse launch before resuming the Engage work.

good summary. And we do not see the major manufactures delivering at all either - OK conflict of interest. But then, what about all the China manufacturers - some specs sound like Zero but you don't see them either - and I mean it - just been looking for them in China. And all I find is Zero as the high end make that is used and delivers. (this was the story that Brammo broke first and never delivered ...) and in terms of China, been as well all over the place. all basic scooters that the market seems to need over there. no performance or fun riding. Still good to see in one day 100+ electric bikes.

[ZeroSinMA]

Thanks for adding your particular insights to the thread, ZeroS.

Engage was announced in 2011, not 2010. I'm not sure what torch you think I'm carrying for the Engage. I would not be surprised if Brammo quietly drops the Engage and Encite bikes completely, as two years after the original announcement the Engage prototype that Shelina raced seems to be largely unchanged.

Forgotten is the period when Brammo stalled Zero sales with announcements in 2011 of soon-to-ship products that still haven't shipped and, as I said at the time, never will.

Brammo caused a period of hardship for Zero and it's dealers with this aggregious competitive tactic. Now it's time for Brammo to take its lumps for doing it.

[protomech]

I don't believe the Engage and Encite had any significant impact on Zero's sales, which as I recall are largely street bikes.

Consider the following:
* Zero announces 2011 X / MX lineup in Feb 2011 with (I think?) immediate availability.
* Brammo announces the Engage and Encite bikes in May 2011. No specifications were available for the Engage bikes besides IET, 2.6 kWh battery, and $9995 / $11995 pricing for the offroad and onroad Engage. No real information was available for the Encite (Zero didn't offer a minimoto competitor anyhow). In particular, no claims were made of a release date.

1. The 2011 Zeros were available to purchase well before the Engage and Encite were announced. Anyone that was an immediate threat to buy an electric dirt bike had probably done so before Brammo announced their bikes.

2. The Engage and Encite, as far as I'm aware, never had specifications released beyond prices. Maybe some people that really wanted a 6 speed transmission were willing to wait until Brammo released real information - again, anyone who absolutely had to have a six speed transmission wasn't in the market for a Zero .. but I can't see any real customers being swayed by Brammo's announcement.

The grand total number of sales Zero could have lost to Brammo's Engage / Encite announcement were the set of people who:
a) were ready to buy a 2011 Zero dirtbike
b) AND were unable to buy a Zero in the Feb 2011 to May 2011 time period (didn't have cash / financing ready to go or didn't have a nearby dealer)
c) AND were ready to buy an electric dirtbike from May 2011 onward
d) AND strongly preferred a six speed IET over direct-drive enough to delay purchase with zero hard specifications, dealer info, etc from Brammo

That set smells like an empty set to me.

3. I keep hearing you talk about anti-competitive behavior from Brammo. Time to put up or shut up. Do you have any evidence showing that Brammo's intent was to hurt Zero, or that their 2011 announcements were made with no intent to follow through? If so, let's see it and I'll join you in condemning Brammo. Otherwise, IMO your stupid holy crusade is built upon flawed assumptions and analysis and honestly is pretty mean-spirited.

[zap mc]

just to add some balance to this debate ( bit old now but never mind)
competition is a healthy thing in an emerging market and two companies offering a similar product will sell more than one company who just rest on their laurels. Its healthy to cheer for your team, be it Zero or Brammo, but neither are perfect and each will make a better product for the consumer as a result of raising the stakes. The major problem for these companies is still price, why should the consumer pay double the price for an electric bike?! until these dumbos at the factories get this simple concept they will never sell any volume and will have to keep going back to the investors with their begging bowl out every year. Unless any of these guys sharpen up their act the industry we all love is in danger of failing.

[protomech]

I think the "dumbos at the factories" are well aware that pricing - and manufacturing cost, which drives pricing - is a huge issue holding back EV adoption. It's a bit of a catch 22; high volume will allow for fairly substantial price cuts (see Volt, LEAF), but few people will buy in when prices are very high.

There's an old joke.. sell at a loss, make it up in volume. I almost wonder whether a strategy like this would work; it's a huge gamble, but if Zero has invester backing to keep the lights on, I wonder if selling at-cost would allow them to pick up volume discounts.

The other piece to the puzzle IMO is that the pool of money-in-hand customers are still somewhat small. There's a growing amount of consumer awareness and interest, both in the car and motorcycle space, in electric vehicles.. but many of them are (perhaps wisely) taking a wait-and-see approach for the vehicles to mature. Dealership rollout, butts-on-seat demos, and time as EVs become less bleeding edge will all help.

Anyhow, this isn't really related to the Engage, which hasn't been mentioned by Brammo in some time.