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20 kWh / 160 hwy miles / 1 hour CHAdeMO / $27000 PP1

1 (5.3%)

20 kWh / 160 hwy miles / 1 hour CHAdeMO / $23000 PP2

3 (15.8%)

15 kWh / 120 hwy miles / 1 hour CHAdeMO / $23000 PP1

0 (0%)

15 kWh / 120 hwy miles / 1 hour CHAdeMO / $20000 PP2

3 (15.8%)

Interested in touring but primarily need lower prices

2 (10.5%)

Interested in touring but primarily need more range

0 (0%)

Interested in touring but primarily need faster charging

2 (10.5%)

Not interested in touring electric

8 (42.1%)

Taco

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 19

[protomech]

In the 2014 model thread we talked about what we are likely to see next year. This is not about what we're likely to see, but more of what Zero *could* build.

The 2013 ZF11.4 models use 4 ZF2.8 modules. It'd be a bit of a packaging challenge, but I believe Zero could offer a 6 module or an 8 module bike. Electrically connected as 2s3p or 2s4p, vs 2013 1s3p and 1s4p. 200V in order to charge at CHAdeMO max 100A (20 kW or 15 kW). Realistically Zero would probably repackage the modules to optimize for weight and volume, but the modules examples provide a nice way to test fit.

Charging:
* 6 kW AC J1772 (50 highway miles/hour)
* 1 hour charge CHAdeMO (120 highway miles/hour 15 kWh, 160 highway miles/hour 20 kWh)

Weight:
* +50 pounds for larger frame, aero, larger charger
* +32 pounds per additional module
* 500 pounds 15 kWh, 560 pounds 20 kWh

Range:
* significant and tasteful aero improvements would help highway range, extra weight would hurt city range
* assuming 120 Wh/mile @ 70 mph highway, 100 Wh/mile @ 55 mph highway, 85 Wh/mile @ city UDDS
* 20 kWh bike would be 160 miles highway, 200 miles 55 mph, 235 miles city
* 15 kWh bike would be 120 miles highway, 150 miles 55 mph, 175 miles city

Cost reckoning (starting with 2013 S):
* built-in CHAdeMO $1000
* aero fairings and extra materials for extended frame $1000
* 6 kW J1772 charger $1000

Two battery pricing scenarios:
* PP1: $2000/module using ZF8.5 $14000 as base price (realistic)
* PP2: $1500/module using ZF8.5 $12500 as base price (optimistic)

[protomech]

Btw I think Zero is unlikely to do this in 2014, for a couple of reasons:

1. The market for $20-30k bikes is not very large. Compare a wild guess at sales:
* ~100 2012 Zeros in first 3 months (I own 00096, purchased 3/11)
* a few dozen Empulse R @ $19k, 4 months of sales (dealer network still very immature)
* 1 confirmed Lightning sale @ $39k (note marketing, dealers, even final bodywork are all preliminary)

2. I think they will want to retain the 2013 powertrain architecture for another year, spread costs. But I thought 2013 would be an incremental update too.. so bad track record.

3. CHAdeMO vs Combo J1772 is going to be a bitter fight. I don't think we'll settle on a fast DC charging standard in the US for a couple of years : (

[NoiseBoy]

It just doesnt make sense in any way at all.  Nobody is going to tour on an electric motorcycle, probably in the next 10 years, unless they are doing so to prove a point and with a great deal of hassle (like Terry).  Concentrate on the sport commuter market which is what they do best,

[protomech]

Certainly it is a niche market, and a great deal depends on infrastructure that only exists along narrow corridors. That's the other part of why I think Zero is unlikely to go all-in on a touring design this next year.

However, ignoring infrastructure for a moment I don't think it's that far off of being practical.

One way to look at is riding to charging ratios, or time spent on the bike vs time spent off the bike.

20 kWh bike is 2.3:1 at 70 mph, 4:1 at 50-55 mph.
Tesla Model S with a Supercharger (5x the power) is around 3:1 at 70 mph, 5:1 at 50-55 mph.

Another way to look at it is time to charge 100 miles.

20 kWh bike is 37 minutes at highway speeds, 30 minutes at 50-55 mph.
Tesla Model S is 28 minutes at highway speeds, 23 minutes at 50-55 mph.

I've only done a little bit of gas touring - a couple 100 mile and 200 mile trips - so I'll only speak to my experience as a non-Iron Butt rider. I liked to stop for around 10 minutes every 100 miles or so, re-fuel, shake out the limbs, decompress a bit then get back on the bike.

So comparable gas numbers for me are 9:1 ride to charge @ 70 mph, 12:1 at 50 mph .. and 10 minutes every 100 miles.

***

The vast and overwhelming majority of the trips I take are in the 100-200 mile range. For many of these trips the 20 kWh bike would not need to stop to charge at all, or could spend 15-30 minutes charging mid-trip and be back on the road. A more complete charge could be obtained overnight or at dinner / activities, provided J1772 AC infrastructure was available.

This very much puts it in the ballpark of a gas bike, which would typically need to stop once, possibly twice to refuel on a similar trip. 0-10 minutes stopped with gas vs 0-30 minutes stopped with electric mid-trip is a trivial penalty.

***

The real key will be finding batteries that can safely accept 2-3C charge rates with 15-20 kWh onboard. I think this will line up with settling on a fast charging infrastructure in several years time. Charging at a full 48 kW from CHAdeMO or J1772 Combo is 5.5:1 at 70 mph, 10:1 at 50-55 mph .. or 15 minutes for 100 miles on the highway, 12 minutes for 100 miles @ 50 mph.

This is very close to zero convenience penalty over gas for touring on very long trips, and possibly ahead on short trips. Again, much depends on infrastructure being rolled out.

[Richard230]

While I am interested in having more range and am willing to pay up to $18K for the privilege for going far in one day.  I just don't have the patience to sit around for an hour while my bike recharges.  I can hardly stand spending 5 minutes at a gas station to refill my gas tank.  Once I get going, I want to keep going until I get to my destination.  Once there I would be willing to recharge for a few hours before returning home, but charging on the road is not my idea of fun.  Plus, I would always worry that when I arrived at a fast charging station it would be either occupied, closed or broken.   

[ColoPaul]

It just doesnt make sense in any way at all.  Nobody is going to tour on an electric motorcycle, probably in the next 10 years, unless they are doing so to prove a point and with a great deal of hassle (like Terry).  Concentrate on the sport commuter market which is what they do best,

Ditto.

[JefRo]

Living in the West leaves little opportunity for charging on longer trips. A typical Saturday loop for me is about 250 miles and charging options are few and far between. Even Level 2 charging stations are quite rare on the front range of Colorado and rarer yet in the mountainous riding areas. A 200 mile range would help reduce range anxiety but still doesn't solve the problem for electric touring.

Instead of increasing the weight with extra batteries, the solution for a touring bike could be based on the Chevy Volt model. I have made a few long trips of a few thousand miles in my 2012 Volt and still have about 40 miles of pure battery operation for daily use without ever using the CS (charge sustaining) mode where the small ICE engine buffers a small SOC in the battery. In the CS mode the ICE only runs enough to sustain a 22% SOC and doesn't run all the time, in fact the switch-over and running in CS is imperceptible for the most part. A tutorial study of the Chevy Volt design and operation (www.gm-volt.com) is simply brilliant and I see a day when this same design will be applied to motorcycles.

An extended range EV motorcycle based on a small ICE, a simple planetary gear set connecting the two, and the existing 11.4 kWH battery pack is all I ask for in a longer range touring bike. Until then my '13DS will just have to be trailered to the places I really enjoy riding. 

 

[firepower]

I think a small trailer with extra batteries or generator would be best, that way you only use for when touring and also carry extra luggage.
you still have light  sports / commuter when not touring.

[WindRider]

Great comments here. 

I would love to tour by Electric motorcycle someday.   Before that can happen, battery chemistry and technology would have to improve and there would have to be some fast charging infrastructure in place.   

I would want 25 -30 KW of battery and recharge time < 15 minutes.   That is a pretty tall order and a big advance from where things are today.   Oh, and I would not want the bike to weigh any more than the 2013 Zeros either.   

I also like to tour on motorcycles in remote back road places so the charging infrastructure would have to be widespread.  I don't want to motorcycle tour on I5. 

A hybrid motorcycle would be heavy and complex.   

I think that Zero should stay in their niche until battery tech and charge infrastructure get a lot better.   

[protomech]

One of the useful effects of a touring electric bike would be the halo effect - it would legitimize all electric bikes in the same sense that the Model S legitimizes all electric cars. The conversation shifts from "electrics can't tour" to "they're too expensive" or "they're too quiet" or "I just don't like them".. even though most electrics (and most vehicles) spend most of their miles in commuting or short trips, charging overnight at home.

For example, comments here:
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2013/April/apr1713-are-you-interested-by-tt-zero/

While the technology is clever and fascinating for me racing is all about the noise and atmoshere, screaming engines tortured to the limit, not a super fast two wheeled milk float, electric road bikes that are of any use, i:e can do 200 miles to a charge are bloody years away....

Now let's think about this ... TT means Tourist Trophy... Can you go touring on a bike with only 100 mile range ? ...  Hmmmm ,,,, NO !
Too many logistical impossibilities.
What a pointless exercise on a machine that no-one asked for.
Racing Raleigh Runabouts would make more sense.

And that legitimizing effect seems to be working well for Tesla so far.

Edit: here's a map of CHAdeMO in the UK:


No chargers on the IOM (though it hardly needs one..) .. but wow, the UK has coverage of all but the very northern tip and a portion of the west. *drool*

[CliC]

I don't think I'd tour much on a Zero, as I didn't tour much on my last IC bike. But I'd love a 100-mile 70-mph highway range, as that would be ideal for where I live (Houston is a large city area-wise, and the suburbs are even farther out). Fast charging would be nice, but not essential, and I'd probably limit my use of it anyway to make it easier for the batteries.

[NoiseBoy]

Edit: here's a map of CHAdeMO in the UK:


No chargers on the IOM (though it hardly needs one..) .. but wow, the UK has coverage of all but the very northern tip and a portion of the west. *drool*

As a side note, those are all Nissan Dealerships and im told that the majority will only allow nissan leaf owners to use them.

[kingcharles]

With a planned nationwide fastcharge network which also supports CHAdeMo (ABB Terra chargers), having a Zero with CHAdeMo suddenly makes that a very interesting option.

 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1085469_holland-to-have-worlds-largest-electric-car-fast-charging-network

[dkw12002]

I'm not a tourer. For one thing I would be concerned for the safety of my bike if I left it in a Hotel parking lot overnight. More importantly, for me, weight is the enemy, even the additional weight of the bigger Zero battery. My bike at 355 lbs. works very well. I can whip it around and it feels like a part of me. Another 50 lbs., especially with no increased performance other than range would not be a good trade off. I do own a heavier bike, a Gixxer 1000 but for that additional weight you get better performance. I'm not even sure that trade-off is worth it. I hate moving a heavier bike in and out of my garage and it is not as nimble as the Zero S.  I would pay more money for a lighter bike or one with more range everything else being equal though. The 2013 8.5 Zero S is pretty close to the perfect bike for me at this time.

[Harlan]

I think it makes more sense to focus on reducing charging time rather than larger batteries. There are plenty of ice bikes that can't travel more than 120 on a tank of gas, it's just that they can be refilled quickly.