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[kcoplan]

Is the glitch coming back from the dead?

For the second time in about three weeks, I just had my motor cutoff for no apparent reason.  Both times, I was accelerating from stopped (or nearly stopped <2 mph).  No fault lights on, just a "chunk" and no power.  Lucky enough both times to push to the edge of the road.  Rebooted and the bike ran fine.  Both times, the cutoff occurred in cool, but not cold, weather (40s).  Both times the cutoff occurred after about 7-8 miles of riding and moderate speeds.

I seem to remember someone else had a similar problem of the motor coming out when first starting, but couldnt find it with a search.

I had the "glitch" recall work performed back in October.  Bike has about 1900 miles on it.  Hope this is not the start of a trend.   

--Karl

[Richard230]

My bike usually (but not always) takes two "start-ups" first thing in the morning.  Last week, it stalled at a traffic light (the first time it has ever done this since the throttle assembly was replaced at 300 miles.  I now have almost 5000 miles on the clock.  I re-booted and rode off.  Since then I have put on over 100 miles and this problem has not returned. (knock on wood)

[ColoPaul]

Similar to Richard, about 1 in 7 times, I have to "start up" twice.  But unlike the 'glitch', there's never any hint of power the first time.

I had the glitch fix about 3200 miles / 8 months ago.  Glitch free- except once, about 3 weeks ago, something glitch-like happened.    I had just powered up, started to roll forward, went about 3 feet and "clunk", no fault lights, no power.  Rebooting fixed it.   Hasn't happened again but still makes me nervous!

Yikes, I hope the glitch doesn't come back!!!!  What you're describing sure sounds like it.  Wonder if it's possible whomever did your glitch recall work didn't get it done correctly?   Keep us posted please!

[kcoplan]

Thanks for adding your experience, ColoPaul.  I have never had the problem with initial startup, but that makes three of us (at least) that have had similar problems with motor cut-outs while accelerating from a stop, post-glitch repair.  What you describe sounds very much like what I experienced -- bike rolls a few feet then makes a "chunk" sound and motor cuts off.

I have never had much success with Zero's e-mail tech support, but if it happens one more time I will call them and see what they say.

--Karl

[swiftsam]

I was hoping to stay in denial, but I have to offer more evidence that the glitch is back. 

* Feb 1 - I got my recall service completed
* Feb 21 - Motor ran rough for ~10 seconds, then cut out while going 60-70 mph on the highway, 5 miles into trip.  Temps in the 40s.  Single reboot and it was good to go.
* Mar 17 - Exact same as Feb 21.  Same route, same temp, motor cut out in the exact same place on the highway.  Single reboot fixed it again.
* Apr 4 (this morning) - zero power first time I turned the bike on, rebooted and left the house fine.  2 miles later after waiting for a red light, I got the "rolls 3 feet then clunck" failure.  Single reboot fixed it again.  Felt some roughness at two points later in the ride but eased off the throttle and it smoothed out.
* I have also felt "roughness" in the motor on a few other occasions, usually when going faster (50-70), but easing off the throttle one to three times for an 1/8 of a mile seems to work.
Updates ...
* Apr 23 - felt a bit of roughness near the end of my commute going ~35mph and eased off which made it go away.  After stopping at the parking lot gate, I applied a small amount of throttle and it cut off.  A single reboot and I was good to go again.
* Apr 24 - One instance of motor cut off after a light turned green (fixed by single reboot), and one instance of rough running at 65mph which went away after I backed off the throttle for a half mile
* Apr 26 - Cut out after a couple of feet when a light turned green. I'm getting good at switching the key off and on without stopping.
* Apr 27 - Very rough for significant periods, had trouble getting it to smooth out.
* June 2 - Cut out after a couple of feet at green light.  Slight rough running when getting up to highway speed
* June 4 - Cut out after a couple of feet at green light.  Rebooted and cut out again.  Cut out three more times on the way home, for a total of 5 on the day. 
* June 5 - Ran extremely rough, lost most power in multiple stretches although never cut out while moving.  Cut out once at a green light, and did the powered-reverse thing after start-up from a 20 minute stop.  Almost constantly running rough or cutting out on the way home.
* June 6 - One cut out at 45mph, 2 cut out at green light starts, multiple spans of rough running.

I noted that a single reboot fixed it each time lately because before my recall service it would take 2-5 reboots before it would go again.  My intuition is that temperature has nothing to do with it as all of these instances were in mild temps, and I rode all through the (sometimes quite cold) winter with no increase in problems.  I do think there is a relationship with speed.  My problems are either near or at highway speed or after a stop, but never when going 5 - 50mph. 

Like I said, I was hoping to stay in denial that these problems were cropping up again.  My dealer is 150 miles away and I don't own a truck, so it was a pretty big production to get it worked on, and when I did get it there it took them a week to upgrade the firmware.

What can we do to get this figured out (again)?

(2012 S ZF6, currently 3,500 4,000 miles)

[Richard230]

In my recent case, my bike stalled at a light but when I turned the throttle it did not roll at all, there was just no reaction, so it did not appear to be a return of the "glitch". 

[kcoplan]

Uh-oh.  Guess I should have called this thread "THE GLITCH IS BACK." 

I thought the "glitch" was a motor cutoff at speed (like SwitftSam describes), not when starting from a stopped position (like I have been experiencing), and Richard and Paul also report variants of.  I never had the original "glitch" since the recall happened about two weeks after I bought my bike.  Also, I thought that re-booting did not reliably resolve the glitch.

I also notice that my motor runs rough if I run WOT at highway speeds, but I just assumed that was the motor laboring with the acceleration I am asking of it.

I have this vague sense (can't really confirm it) that both starting cutouts occurred with WOT to get started from a stoplight (or stop and go traffic).

Anyway, I hope that we'll hear from anyone else with the problem  . . .  and I hope that if this is a recurring problem we can count on Zero coming up with another fix promptly.

--Karl

[ColoPaul]

My original glitch experience (last summer) always occurred when accelerating from a stop or low speeds.
Like Karl, I always get the 'rough' motor at WOT at >45mph.   I have never had a glitch at speeds >20 mph.

I suspect we'll probably have to live with the 'reduced glitch' problem.  Zero has very limited resources.  If it's just a few of us having the issue, and it's not very repeatable, and they have no bikes at the factory that do it,  we're SOL.   Maybe Sam could rent a Uhaul and take his bike to Santa Clara for a month vacation?   

I think the 2013's have the same Sevcon controller as the 2012s?   If so - maybe they'll get the 'reduced glitch' too and Zero might put some effort into it.

[mehve]

I had my BMS board replaced recently (early March) from water intrusion. But Zero didn't have 2012 boards anymore so they retrofitted a 2013 BMS board to work with my '12 S ZF9.  Worked great afterwards. But last Thursday and Friday, acceleration had become rather poor -- to the point that the car in front of me is four car lengths away before I get to 10mph.  This happens in Eco mode. Sport mode is slow too, slower than Eco used to be.  Is this the roughness you guys are talking about?

But the bike runs fine once I'm over 25mph. But it just takes so long to actually get there. Heck, a guy on a bicycle can out-accelerate me for the first 200ft.

+ m

[ColoPaul]

  Is this the roughness you guys are talking about?

To me, the "roughness" means a slight vibration/rumbling from the otherwise perfectly smooth motor.  No loss of power.

I think your problem is something else.

[kcoplan]

Paul said:

To me, the "roughness" means a slight vibration/rumbling from the otherwise perfectly smooth motor.  No loss of power.

Me too.

Mehve said:

Heck, a guy on a bicycle can out-accelerate me for the first 200ft.

I am a cyclist, too.  Bicycles have great initial acceleration because they are so light!

Seriously, sometimes the Zero does seem logy off the line, and since I have become convinced that the cutouts have something to do with wide open throttle from a dead stop, I don't open it up from a dead stop anymore.  The '12 Zero's are tuned so that there's not much difference in acceleration off the line from half throttle and full throttle anyway.

--Karl

[BSDThw]

But the bike runs fine once I'm over 25mph. But it just takes so long to actually get there. Heck, a guy on a bicycle can out-accelerate me for the first 200ft.

I had a similar effect before my throttle poti was defect. the acceleration became weaker and than it died completely.

The glitch with WOT might also be a throttle problem! If the throttle makes a "loose contact" (the Poti will wear off ; sometimes at a radio you will have that too and a change in volume make a scratchy sound)  the Sevcon will interpret it as a broken wire and switch off.

[protomech]

Uh-oh.  Guess I should have called this thread "THE GLITCH IS BACK." 

I've been having similar problems recently. Hoping it was just me for several reasons:
1. I had hoped this perhaps unique to my bike, and not a systemic problem.
2. More importantly, I wanted to title the thread "Son of a Glitch!".

My symptoms:
* Slightly rough motor operation above ~50 mph. Motor is completely smooth below this point, regardless of requested acceleration. I recall the motor being completely smooth in all RPM ranges prior to the controller update.
* Post-update, every time the bike is powered on the motor is a bit hesitant for a few feet before it smooths out. I assume this is some type of calibration cycle.
* I've seen 3-4 cut-outs post-controller update (from 5000 miles @ 10/2012 through 8000 miles @ 3/2013). I recall these occuring during the warmer days of winter, 50+ F when most days were 25-45 F. Usually preceded by a period of rough motor operation.
* In the last month it's been warmer, 50-80 F and I've seen 1-2 cut-outs per week.
* In the last month on 2-3 occasions the motor has been very erratic and jerky upon power-up, rendering the bike inoperable. Power cycling the bike or occasionally riding the bike a dozen feet or so has "fixed" the erratic behavior.
* On one particular occasion, after powering up the motor would jerkily and slowly move backwards as the grip was twisted. This behavior persisted across perhaps 10 power cycles, but it disappeared after approximately 5 minutes of sitting on the bike with it powered off.

[Richard230]

I am keeping my fingers crossed that the "glitch" does not appear on my bike.  Currently my 2012 "S"'s only irritation is to occasionally need a restart to get the throttle to move the bike.  I can live with that, but the "glitch" occurring while moving is another matter.   

Less than a year to go before the warranty runs out. 

[kcoplan]

Protomech's story is concerning!   I wonder if you should bring the bike in for warranty service while you still can?

I experienced something like Paul's initial boot up problem on Tuesday morning - no throttle response, bike ran fine after rebooting once.  I think I did not have the bike absolutely still during the initial boot up -  I wonder if movement in the rotors can mess up the initial calibration.

-Karl