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[trikester]

All of my working career was in electronic engineering. The last 20 or so in switchmode DC power supplies. Something we all were familiar with was "infant mortality" of semiconductor circuits.

After a device is built the failure rate is high in the first hours of operation. Then the rate drops and stays at a low level for a log period of usage. Finally, a long way out, the failure rate starts climbing again and reaches "end of life" for the device. This is very common and many people have drawn the curve in publications.

To try to lessen the effect of infant mortality, we would run every power supply under switching or steady full load in a high temperature chamber called a "burn-in room" for 12 hours standard or longer if a customer required it. Each supply was monitored while in burn-in and then run back through full test before shipping to detect any deviation from the test run before burn-in.

Even with all of this effort to root out IM, once in awhile a supply would be DOA on arrival at a customer's bench. Naturally, when marketing would get the phone call the first words out of the customer's mouth would be; "don't you guys turn these on before shipping"? We always took those comments in stride.

I seriously doubt that Zero has the facility and can afford to do that kind of testing and burn-in on the finished product, that we did. Hopefully, the manufacturers of the MBB, BMS, DC / DC converters, and chargers, do active burn-in on their products. If not, then shame on them, because they will have a higher rate of infant mortality

The moral of this story is: Be lucky and don't be the unlucky guy who gets the device that experiences infant mortality. It's all a gamble, we just want the odds to be highly in our favor. Unfortunately it isn't always. I hope, once Zero gets the failures corrected, that you then have many trouble free, and happy, miles to go.

Trikester

[DesignerDan]

I must be really unlucky then because this bike wasn't even supposed to be mine. "My" bike got destroyed durning shipping due to poor packaging (accordong to my dealership) and Zero sent a new one out the next day. That new one  that they sent out is mine right now. ( the broken one) Infant mortality is understandable. I'm just mad that the problem didnt get fixed the first time. I honestly think they don't even know what the problem is. I went in the shop when they were fixing it the first time and they had the entire bike taken apart. They had the front cover of the battery box off, the main contractor box was opened up. Neither of those had anything to do with getting the main bike board out which makes me think that they weren't even sure the MBB was the problem.

Hopefully I will here something today from Zero or the dealership regarding the repair status. If this problem can be fixed in a timely manner (fixed for good. None of this leaving me stranded crap) I will still be a pleased customer.

[spelunker]

Sounds to me like they just need to send you another bike!

[Richard230]

Regarding Trikester's comments: I am still upset about the ignition module on my 1985 Kawasaki GPz305.  It was mounted directly above the cylinder head and would fail at 8000 miles, just like clockwork.  When I would check the problem according to the service manual for the bike I would discover that a thermsister (sorry about the spelling, Trikester) would have failed. The cost to replace it was around $150. After having been stranded on the road a couple of times due to that failed and completely sealed (unrepairable) component, I traded the little GPz in on my first BMW.  Anyway, that was my first encounter with a solid-state electrical component being stressed out by a motorcycle's environment.  Ever since then I sort of expect motorcycle electrical components, especially wires, connectors, solid-state thingies, and especially batteries, to fail at inconvenient times and when you least expect it. Motorcycles are hell on electrical stuff. 

[trikester]

I was recently stuck at a Mexican restaurant in Borrego Springs CA on my 2001 Royal Enfield. It was running when I stopped and totally dead when I went to start it, after my lunch. My truck was five miles away at headquarters for a big antique motorcycle ride week. I borrowed a cell phone but our esteemed leader didn't have his cell turned on (unknown to me). After waiting about 1 1/2 hours for rescue, a kind bicyclist rode to his house and came back with his truck.

I didn't locate the problem until I got the bike into my shop, so my riding weekend ended up being on my brand new Zero FX. It turned out to be an unplugged connector behind the headlight. It was still partially engaged but not making contact. Since nothing could have unplugged it from its fully mated position (very strong detent) I decided it had been that way since the bike was new, and it slowly backed the rest of the way out, until it was no longer touching the ends of the pins. A manufacturing error that took 12 years to show up!

Trikester

[ColoPaul]

I feel sorry for DesignerDan.  He was under the expectation that his $14000 brand-new motorcycle would work for at least the first month.  Or if it didn't, it would get fixed and then work.  At least his dealer gave him a loaner.  It may be he was unlucky, maybe not.  It remains to be seen if the 2013's will have better quality than the 2012's.  I hope they do.

The 2012 Zero's had water corrosion/ingress problems, bad throttle assy's, leaky forks, and the notorious 'glitch'.  A total of 3 recalls.  Personally, I also had to have my motor replaced at just 2400 miles and during the glitch event my 3 month old bike sat in the shop for an entire month (no loaner) while Zero tried to figure out what to do.  Somewhere during all these repairs they messed up the BMS programming resulting in a malfunctioning fuel gauge which took 3 more visits to the dealer and all kinds of calls direct to Zero to get sorted out.   As bad as all that was, I'm still happy I got the Zero.  But I would have been happier if Zero had done a better job of managing expectations up-front.

I was talking to my buddy who bought a Leaf about the same time I got my Zero.   He's put twice as many miles on it, and has had no issues whatsoever.  He's active on Leaf user forums, and reported to me that there are very few quality complaints.   Seems like a Leaf is more complex than a Zero, so what's up?

Is it because Nissan makes millions of cars and has for decades- they have lots of resources and a deep knowledge base - the annual Leaf production is significant (10000/year).   Whereas Zero is relatively green, relatively tiny, and they are knocking out much fewer units (~250 bikes/year)?

What would happen if a big-name motorcycle maker (with lots of resources and a deep knowledge base) bought Zero out, redesigned and ramped up production?   Could that drop prices significantly?  Improve quality?

[DesignerDan]

I just talked to the mechanic that's working on my bike. The BMS is dead. No CAN bus or lights blinking. He said it's entirely possible that this was the problem last time, and not the MBB that was suspected. And the bike worked with the new MBB by chance and not because the problem was actually fixed. Either way I'm not too happy about it. The BMS is arguably the most crucial part on the entire bike. It's what keeps the cells balanced so none of them get over discharged or over charged and causing thermal runaway and potentially a fire.

(Just look into the boeing dreamliner battery "fires". Even though the cause was NOT determined to be the BMS, it still proves what happens when large capacity cells, that are not thermally isolated, fail and start thermal runaway.)

So anyway I'm a little annoyed that part failed because for all I know, it could have done damage to my cells. Considering the battery is arguably the most expensive part on the bike, this is nothing to take lightly. Such overcharging or over discharging would do internal damage to the cells. This would reduce the life of them, generate more heat while they were in use, affect the capacity, and cause more voltage drop under load.

I don't think the cells were damaged though. (hopefully) I think the BMS just stopped working. The mechanic said Zero express shipped a new BMS and I should have the bike back sometime next week.

Looking forward: I wonder if Zero should test drive all new bikes and put like 200 miles on them before shipping them to the dealerships. It sounds to me that all of the 2013 problems could have easily been avoided if Zero tested the bikes more extensively before shipment. I would much rather have a "new" bike with 200 miles on it than a new bike with 0 miles on it but breaks after one day.

Any thoughts? Surely there is a solution to increase quality control. What's more expensive? Increasing quality control or having all these customers having to bring the bikes back to the dealer because of problems?

[Richard230]

I would have to agree that Zero should perform a test ride before shipping their bikes off.  Perhaps they do that.  If they do so, it might be a good thing to mention in any product description regarding their models.  I recall that some British brands during the 1950's and 1960's claimed to test ride every new motorcycle for a few miles before sticking it the shipping crate.  Of course that takes time and a couple of paid dedicated test riders. But I am not sure that is the standard in the industry any more.  As you know, motorcycle odometers on new motorcycles come with just about zero miles on the clock when you buy a new IC motorcycle.  I can recall when a new motorcycle odometer would show between 3 and 4 miles, indicating that the bike was either test ridden by the factory, or more likely, test ridden by a tech at the selling retailer as part of the set-up procedure.  I am not sure this is done any more. Perhaps because buyers want to see a new bike show 0 miles on the clock.  It makes them feel like they are riding a virgin.   

[lolachampcar]

My bike came with 2 miles on the clock.  I would think Zero runs them on rollers for a few miles just to make sure all is well.  I'm not convinced they are monitoring everything during this process as mine showed up with rear wheel bearings that took power consumption to 180 whr/mi in the first few miles as the bearings eat themselves alive.  Zero was very quick to get this problem addressed but I agree that a young small company may not have the depth to weed out IM.

For the record, my first Zero had zero problems.  The only reason it was serviced was an on site visit for a recall (which had not cause me any problems).  My second Zero had two issues right out of the gate with both related to the suspension supplier and not core Zero technology.

[NoiseBoy]

The dealer should be doing a test ride as part of the PDI but whether going round the block a couple times would show these problems i don't know.

[Richard230]

The dealer should be doing a test ride as part of the PDI but whether going round the block a couple times would show these problems i don't know.

I agree.  Any after-assembly test riding should be instrumented and performed at the factory, so that the retail dealer doesn't have to resolve any electronic issues, for which they may not have the equipment or expertise to deal with.

[TargeT]

My bike left the crate with 5 miles on the ODO; however the clicking Issue showed up at 15 miles... I was just thinking that I should have had the dealer keep the bike for a few days, maybe demo it out just to shake everything loose then I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in..

over all it seems like a minor issue, just hope it gets resolved quickly

[Richard230]

I might add that when my 2012 S had its glitch fixed at the factory last summer, Zero put 200 miles on it over a weekend to be sure it was now working OK.

[trikester]

In my collecting and riding restored antique motorcycles I've learned (and others have also told me) to not buy a restored bike if it doesn't have at least a hundred miles on the rebuilt engine. Many engine problems would have shown up by then.

Trikester

[manlytom]

interesting question on electric bikes to quality ensure. I had a bad run on a 2010 (after all BMS) and now with the 2011 all good. These are not ICE engines - so not really much running in or issues after 100 or 200 miles...
seems overall the reliability has gone up significantly from 2009 to now 2013. 2012 so seem to be a very "stable" year. to early to tell for 2013.