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[dkw12002]

There is a good article showing a 2013 Zero S and talking about what it will take for widespread acceptance of electric motorcycles and cars in the Jan edition of Motorcycle Consumer News. The gist of it is that range and cost are the two big problems. Cost could be expected to come down with higher sales volume. Range? It's not likely to get to 300 miles any time soon. The solution (which has been discussed here on the forum) is a battery exchange where you trade in your dying battery for a recharged one at the gas station. Since you don't actually buy the battery with the bike, the cost for the electric motorcycle will be less. Then the article mentioned how batteries would have to be standardized and dispensed automatically due to the weight. I guess you would put the battery on your credit card to make sure you didn't abscond with it, kind of like Red Box.

The lead article also interesting but not directly related to electric motorcycles concerned Brazil and their energy independence using hydrous ethanol and special cars AND motorcycles. Honda and Yamaha both make motorcycles that run on the stuff, and they put special fuel injection that senses the amount of ethanol in the fuel since that varies for 18% to much higher. The ethanol in our cars in anhydrous which is apparently much harder and expensive to make from corn. Brazil uses sugar cane. Good article.

[skeezmour]

There is a good article showing a 2013 Zero S and talking about what it will take for widespread acceptance of electric motorcycles and cars in the Jan edition of Motorcycle Consumer News. The gist of it is that range and cost are the two big problems. Cost could be expected to come down with higher sales volume. Range? It's not likely to get to 300 miles any time soon. The solution (which has been discussed here on the forum) is a battery exchange where you trade in your dying battery for a recharged one at the gas station. Since you don't actually buy the battery with the bike, the cost for the electric motorcycle will be less. Then the article mentioned how batteries would have to be standardized and dispensed automatically due to the weight. I guess you would put the battery on your credit card to make sure you didn't abscond with it, kind of like Red Box.

The lead article also interesting but not directly related to electric motorcycles concerned Brazil and their energy independence using hydrous ethanol and special cars AND motorcycles. Honda and Yamaha both make motorcycles that run on the stuff, and they put special fuel injection that senses the amount of ethanol in the fuel since that varies for 18% to much higher. The ethanol in our cars in anhydrous which is apparently much harder and expensive to make from corn. Brazil uses sugar cane. Good article.

Never once have I had a motorcycle that had a range over 200 miles on a tank. Not sure why the need for 300 on one. With zero now offering chademo that brings any of there bikes charge time down to 1 hour (cell limited in this case). So many cells out there can do 30 min charges with little problem already. It will come down to getting the nice balance of power, weight, costs, and cycle life that matches the target market.

Honestly both the new Brammo and most of the Zero line would take care of a HUGE part of my riding. Since I almost never just have 1 bike anyways I may keep my ICE for a little longer for my long trips. But that will become a non issue in just a couple more years.

[dkw12002]

Right. I think the point was that as it stands with so few places to charge you actually need MORE range with an electric bike cause you are likely going to have to get through the whole day and re-charge at home whereas an ice bike can stop at any service station to refill, no worries.  Once they have re-charged batteries available at service stations, you won't need to get a long range. The article was talking about electric cars as well. I think he is absolutely right about this. People have to be able to take their electric bikes on trips without range anxiety and trying to find a place to re-charge. Service stations make the most sense.

[firepower]

swap battery tech is same old hydrogen power story, its fear uncertainty and doubt, it basicly lets wait for infrasturture before buying EV
when will it happen, usual answer for hydrogen is 5 to 10 years. I thinks this is just stalling talk.
Petrol / Gas / Fuel industry dont want you charging at home, and these swap battery packs will only be charged by them.

No EV car or Bikes are promoting swap batteries, they know for best weight saving and range, battery pack  has to be integrated well in the vechicle at design stage, build product around battery pack. Also removable battery packs will need to be heavier and bulkier for safety and weather sealing and electical saftey.

I think the best idea for extended range will be an tow behind trailer, you hire as needed, gives you range , and when at destination can be removed and bike car used as normal.

[skeezmour]

Well I will be more than happy with our 150+ mile, 1 hour or less (with chademo) charge time. I will be able to ride from Washington to Southern California with no problem on electric. Sure it will be a slightly longer trip but in some ways i'm looking forward to seeing what new adventure it will bring.

[Richard230]

In my opinion, I don't think that battery swapping is going to work.  Every manufacturer has a different battery design and the cost of infrastructure would be too great to be workable.  I think the most likely option would be for existing gas stations to offer fast charging stations and for the manufacturers to standardize their charging systems and devices.

[protomech]

Agree wrt battery swapping.. there's no consensus among manufacturers, even with very similar design goals eg Brammo and Zero .. and unless everyone throws their weight behind One Standard Battery Format, then the entire thing is non-viable.

I wish A Better Place all the luck in the world.. battery swaps definitely solve the range issue, providing a swap station is nearby .. but the logistics seem unfavorable. Maybe it could work in an idealized top-down managed society (or company, for example), but unlikely to be a viable solution in the real world.

A flow battery with an electrolyte fluid might work better, as the flow fluid should be usable regardless of size or voltage of the battery. MIT's Cambridge Crude is supposed to have a prototype in 2013. We'll see how well this works.. but it has promise. It would also solve the sudden grid impact of fast charging stations, and the crude storage pools could even be used as grid buffer, where cheap base load power is stored overnight and then discharged during the day to avoid turning on the expensive natural gas and diesel power plants.

One thing that I think could work would be linkable energy units, either additional batteries or a generator unit: gas genset, fuel cell, etc. Some type of very efficient programmable DC/DC converter would allow you to have a common format for the energy units, if you could rent them from a store. Terry is experimenting with the linking bit with his LiFePO4 addon pack .. saddlebag batteries are often brought up as one particular solution.

esbk.co interviewed Kenyon Kluge of Zero back in october. The interview was quite long and insightful, one relevant bit is that Zero has designed the swappable modules on the 2013 FX / MX / XU bikes so that the battery modules will coordinate power draw based upon differing SOC points.. so there's no need to carefully match the modules. This is HUGE for facility type operations where they could have a pool of modules charging, and individuals could swing by and exchange modules with near-zero chance for configuration error. Seems ideal for law enforcement operations, or small delivery type services. Kenyon Kluge also mentioned that the module is designed independently of the interior battery chemistry.. so expect to see these modules reused at least for a couple of years.. and perhaps an upgrade option for 2013 owners. Maybe.

[Richard230]

I forgot about hearing that comment regarding the FX? replaceable batteries.  While we were passing through the battery assembly area, I think I heard a comment made to Terry that you can stuff a couple of batteries (which look like sealed auto batteries) into your bike and the electronics compensates for their differing voltages and states of charge in some way. That has got to be a good idea for MX racing.

[trikester]

esbk.co interviewed Kenyon Kluge of Zero back in october. The interview was quite long and insightful, one relevant bit is that Zero has designed the swappable modules on the 2013 FX / MX / XU bikes so that the battery modules will coordinate power draw based upon differing SOC points.. so there's no need to carefully match the modules. This is HUGE for facility type operations where they could have a pool of modules charging, and individuals could swing by and exchange modules with near-zero chance for configuration error. Seems ideal for law enforcement operations, or small delivery type services. Kenyon Kluge also mentioned that the module is designed independently of the interior battery chemistry.. so expect to see these modules reused at least for a couple of years.. and perhaps an upgrade option for 2013 owners. M

On my way to the Long Beach show I stopped by one of the rider safety course training parking lots (VA Hospital) and spoke with them. They had already contacted Zero (once) about the potential of using electric bikes in the early bike handling phases of their rider training. They said the big problem was that they usually utilize a parking lot (in numerous areas) where they have a storage unit for the bikes, during the night, but no electrical power. I told them that they should check out the XU. With the quick swap batteries they could take all of the batteries back to their headquarters each evening and then return them fully charged to their various training sites each morning. This was exciting news to them. One battery module / bike would do them for the day's training.

Hopefully they are now talking with Zero about getting some 2013 XU's to try out in their course. They use a lot of bikes, up and down this big state.

Trikester

Geez, I should be in Zero's marketing 





Trikester

[dkw12002]

Anyone know what the weight of the MX is without the battery? It might be much more easily transported and run up a ramp or whatever. My 2011 S was just under 200 lbs. with the battery, so the MX has to be like 150 lbs. or so. Heck, I could get that in the back of my car.

[trikester]

The batteries (according to Zero) weigh 42 pounds apiece so one can calculate the bike weight with either two, one, or none, batteries on board.

When I get my 2013 FX I intend to do the shorter dirt rides near my desert cabin with just one battery, to knock off 42 lbs of bike weight. I have a big variety of desert rides available in the area, so it's going to be great to be able to select whether to use one or two batteries, depending on the ride I'm heading out to do.

Trikester

[protomech]

265 lbs 2 modules => 223 lbs 1 module => 181 lbs 0 modules

[Richard230]

I just got around to reading Glynn Kerr's article titled "Current Limitations".  Mr. Kerr is a world famous and well respected freelance motorcycle designer and I usually agree with most of his articles regarding motorcycle design.  But I believe he is thinking a little too far out of the (economic) box with this one. Swapping batteries may make sense for small consumer products, but I think it would be too complicated and expensive for motor vehicles.  Everyone is going in different directions regarding batteries and their associated electronics and you wouldn't be able to standardize the battery packs in this industry. Just look at the different types of 12V auto and motorcycle batteries on the market.  I never understood why there had to be over a hundred different sizes and connector styles and locations to produce 12 volts from a plastic box.  To me it just never made any sense.  But there you are.  If simple 12V lead-acid batteries can't be standardized during the past 100 years, what chance is there that could happen with the different types of propulsion batteries, especially as new designs and technologies appear in the future?   

[dkw12002]

Looks like the demand would have to come first, then maybe they could standardize, but probably not the other way around. Again we are back to really high gas prices or some additional breakthroughs for electric vehicles and bikes to really catch on.

[flar]

There isn't as much need to standardize lead-acid starter batteries, though.  The most you have to deal with it is to buy a new one every few years, so if you have to order the right type or go to your dealer to make sure you get a compatible model then it isn't that much of a hassle.

If people were to buy into battery swaps for EVs, though, there would be much higher motivation to standardize.

My issue with battery swaps is that the conditions of the batteries would be highly variable.  If you stop for a battery swap in a low-traffic area (i.e. "the sticks"), then you might get one with low range due to having been left on a charger too long (or worse, not having been kept reasonably well charged).  And, that would happen to you possibly in a situation when you really needed the range...