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[benswing]

Bottom line:  It's happening, and coming to a town near you.  Get a 2013 Zero and save yourself a lot of headache, cost, weight, cords and installation complication. 

Thanks for the response, offthegrid.  I was thinking about buying a 2013 bike, but need to wait at least one more year before buying a new vehicle (bought a car in '11 and a Zero S ZF9 in '12).  Also, the nearest CHAdeMO charging station to me (near NYC) is in Toronto, Canada about 470 miles away.  Once there are CHAdeMO chargers available nearby, I will be more tempted to make the jump.

Also Biff, thanks for the explanation of the differences between the J1772 outlet and the CHAdeMO charger. 

[NoiseBoy]

Unfortunately Terry we can't all afford to blow £12k on a 2013 having just spent the same 6 months ago on a 2012 so extra chargers are still worth researching.

[CliC]

Man, I'd love to. Part of me wished I had waited, as I'm riding very little at the moment. But I have a house to buy first, and I want to let the 2013s "age" a bit and get any recalls out of the way

[protomech]

Ben as Harlan and Biff mentioned here, I don't think production bikes will come with lots of onboard AC chargers installed.  It's possible as chargers get more efficient, more powerful, smaller, lighter and less expensive you might see aftermarket upgrades to allow faster AC charging.

But remember, the more times you charge faster, the more you heat the battery pack, and eventually you will see a slightly reduced range, granted it may be over 1000 cycles like this but still if you don't need to charge quickly, don't do it on a regular basis.  Even with all my chargers, when staying in a hotel, I charge with just 1 Delta Q overnight, unless I'm going to sleep for less than 4-6 hours to get back on the road, then I might use 2.

I think we'll slowly see faster AC charging - between the better efficiencies of the 2013 bike and the 1.3 kW charger, it charges twice as fast as the 2012 bikes in terms of highway miles per hour. Extreme modifications to bike packaging probably aren't worthwhile in commuter applications.

To go back to charger technology, there is a company I believe called ElTek that is making a 3kw automotive charger in 3 flavors between 70v and 420v DC in a small form factor that weighs about 6 pounds.  (about 1/2 the weight and 3.5x the power of a Delta Q)  They have extremely high efficiency and so generate less waste heat than the PFC chargers from Delta Q and Elcon which are already better than non Power Factor Corrected chargers.  But it may be a few years before the price on those is reasonable.

The Empulse uses the Eltek 3500 charger. It's liquid-cooled. I'd really like to see Brammo offer a two-charger configuration for touring purposes - giving the same 30A AC charging capability as your bike - but I understand the first charger already compromises packaging by elevating the pillion seat position.

I believe because the Nissan Leaf has a built in CHAdeMO, and there are Leafs everywhere now, I think in the next few months, these chargers will start popping up everywhere.

CHAdeMO definitely has a head start on SAE/J1772 DC, but I think we're going to see a significant standards war that hurts charger infrastructure rollout. BMW, GM, Ford, VW are committed to the SAE DC plug. Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and now Zero support the CHAdeMO plug.

It's a mess. And it makes me mad. There probably are some technical advantages of the SAE plug, but this feels very much like a political fight .. and it'll be EV owners, would-be owners, and early infrastructure supporters that get burned.

[protomech]

Nissan is pledging to bring 500 new CHAdeMO quick chargers to the US over the next 18 months, including 40 to the DC area.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/31/nissan-will-triple-number-of-dc-fast-chargers-in-us/

[Richard230]

Nissan is pledging to bring 500 new CHAdeMO quick chargers to the US over the next 18 months, including 40 to the DC area.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/31/nissan-will-triple-number-of-dc-fast-chargers-in-us/

Way to go, Nissan!   

[benswing]

CHAdeMO definitely has a head start on SAE/J1772 DC, but I think we're going to see a significant standards war that hurts charger infrastructure rollout. BMW, GM, Ford, VW are committed to the SAE DC plug. Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and now Zero support the CHAdeMO plug.

This is my understanding of the situation as well.  Thanks!

[protomech]

Add Tesla to the list as supporting CHAdeMO as well, via an adapter. At least in Japan, and there's some noise about bringing this to the US sooner rather than later.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/11/tesla-model-s-will-have-available-chademo-adaptor-in-japan/

So there's something like... 40k Nissan Leafs sold worldwide, maybe 5k Mitsubishi i-MiEVs, and 3k Tesla Model S vehicles that support CHAdeMO. 2000+ chargers on the ground right now.

SAE DC?

0 cars in customer hands. Chevy Spark EV coming this year. BMW i3 coming who knows when.

0 public charging stations. Possible to adapt some existing CHAdeMO stations to SAE.

[Biff]

It seems likely that there will be chargers that have both SAE Combo, and Chademo connectors, since the power electronics actually doing the work are the same.

I did a quick search, and it seems that this company is doing just that.
http://www.ies-synergy.com/en/chargers/keywatt-charging-stations-power-modules/chademo-combo-modules-public-charging


Electric vehichles are still in there infancy, what are the chances that either of these standards are still the leader 10 years from now?  Who still regularly uses their VCR?

I know it hasn't been brought up yet, but the first thing that comes to many peoples' minds when looking into the future is Wireless charging.  Wireless charging is a dream. Until you get 99.9% efficient wireless transmission of power, you are wasting a significant amount of money to save yourself from a maximum of 10 seconds to plug in your vehicle, and then if your technology gets outdated, there may be no way to use the "new and improved" wireless charging stations.  With wired technology, you should always be able to have some sort of adaptor box, as long as your battery voltage is in the range of the new charger, that would let you plug in with minimal difficulty.

I imagine that since electric vehicles are much more expesive that VCR casettes, and we don't predict battery voltages changing drastically over the next 10 years, these companies are expecting their standards to last a long time.

I still think that most chargers 5 years from now will have both Chademo and SAE J1772 combo output cables, and that you will be able to purchase a device that converts one to the other, but it won't be cheap since the connectors themselves are a couple hundred dollars each right now.

-ryan

[protomech]

It's smart for the charger manufacturers to hedge their bets for now. So dual cable chargers may become the norm.

Adapters, at least at first, will likely cost a couple grand. Zero's CHAdeMO inlet is reportedly $1800. I could see prices for adapters dropping to a couple hundred dollars in significant volume .. with time.

Wireless charging can be pretty efficient. I see numbers around 90% efficient (just the transmission link). For opportunity charging (7 kW AC) that's probably fine. You probably wouldn't charge at home with wireless.. but who knows. A Leaf charged on wireless will be more efficient than an electric SUV charged with a wired connection.

***

I guess the thing that most irritates me about J1772 DC is that it's a hypocritical standard.

SAE makes the following arguments:

1. A combo inlet which offers compatibility with the thousands of installed J1772 EVSE is very important. Slimmer, more elegant designs like the Tesla Model  S that transmit AC/DC power over a common set of conductive pins are disqualified for this reason.

2. A combo inlet which breaks compatibility with the thousands of installed CHAdeMO chargers is of no consequence.

3. Every existing J1772 AC-compatible EV owner? Yeah, fuck you.

J1772 combo offers compatibility in only one direction: J1772 combo inlets on NEW vehicles can accept either existing J1772 AC or J1772 combo.

J1772 AC inlets on EXISTING vehicles do not appear to be physically compatible with the AC component of the combo plug - perhaps by design. Not the Empulse. Not the Leaf. Not the Focus EV or Volt (remember that both Ford and GM are SAE supporters). This means charging existing vehicles will either require a separate J1772 AC EVSE or separate AC and DC cablesets and plugs on the SAE charger. Same thing that CHAdeMO must do.

Going forward, J1772 combo offers IMO only one advantage over CHAdeMO: J1772 combo inlet is about as big as CHAdeMO inlet, and about half the size of J1772 AC + CHAdeMO. Inlet costs hopefully will drop (CHAdeMO inlets are not inexpensive, see above) .. and may not, depending upon the cost of the Homeplug Green PHY adapter. So there's that.

But still .. the J1772 combo smells. It smells like "not-designed-here" disease.

[Richard230]

My concern about charging stations near public shopping areas and businesses is that they will be used for long-term parking, as well as charging, meaning that when you drive up to a charging station you will not be able to use it until the owner of the car returns from shopping, watching a movie, or at the end of the work day.  Fast charging on the road is great - but only if you can find an open charging station - and of course one that has been properly maintained or has not been vandalized and that still works.  I don't know what the solution is for this issue.     Maybe charging by the minute for parking as well as the electrical usage?

[protomech]

Only really two things you can do:

1. Ticket cars that park in the EV parking spot. Some EVSE have the capability to detect a parked car in the lot - if the cable is not connected to a J1772 supply, it could be rigged to phone a meter maid.
2. Place the EV parking spots at the rear of the lot, or in another less-desirable location.

I like #2 more than #1.

[Biff]

Only really two things you can do:

1. Ticket cars that park in the EV parking spot. Some EVSE have the capability to detect a parked car in the lot - if the cable is not connected to a J1772 supply, it could be rigged to phone a meter maid.
2. Place the EV parking spots at the rear of the lot, or in another less-desirable location.

I like #2 more than #1.

Another couple advantages to #2 is that you could put more charging stations without the shops being concerned that you are essentially removing some prime parking spots infront of their establishment, so more places woud be willing to have them installed, and that they would likely be closer to the roads where they can actually be seen by more people.  The down side is that power might be more difficult to access away from already established structures.

in your previous comment Protomec you make some good points.  My opinion of EV wireless charging doesn't change with the power of the charger.  Even at home with a 2kW charger or something,  you still want to fill a your battery, and you would pay for 10%less energy if you plugged it in vs using a 90%efficient wireless charging method.  I can see how some people might think that it is worth paying a 10%preimium on electricty to charge their car with the convenence of a wireless charger, but I don't see the appeal to the added expense / careless use of our resources.

-ryan

[flar]

3. Every existing J1772 AC-compatible EV owner? Yeah, fuck you.

J1772 combo offers compatibility in only one direction: J1772 combo inlets on NEW vehicles can accept either existing J1772 AC or J1772 combo.

The picture of the combo plug I see is unfortunately blocked by the bodywork of most existing J1772 compatible vehicles, but the AC portion looks the same.  I wonder if the plug could be easily engineered so that the DC terminals are on a separate sliding sub-chassis and you can plug in just an AC plug, or slide the DC portion forward to plug in together.  If the DC terminals are not slid forward when the AC starts communicating with the car, they would be disabled for safety.

[NoiseBoy]

Only really two things you can do:

1. Ticket cars that park in the EV parking spot. Some EVSE have the capability to detect a parked car in the lot - if the cable is not connected to a J1772 supply, it could be rigged to phone a meter maid.
2. Place the EV parking spots at the rear of the lot, or in another less-desirable location.

I like #2 more than #1.

Another couple advantages to #2 is that you could put more charging stations without the shops being concerned that you are essentially removing some prime parking spots infront of their establishment, so more places woud be willing to have them installed, and that they would likely be closer to the roads where they can actually be seen by more people.  The down side is that power might be more difficult to access away from already established structures.

in your previous comment Protomec you make some good points.  My opinion of EV wireless charging doesn't change with the power of the charger.  Even at home with a 2kW charger or something,  you still want to fill a your battery, and you would pay for 10%less energy if you plugged it in vs using a 90%efficient wireless charging method.  I can see how some people might think that it is worth paying a 10%preimium on electricty to charge their car with the convenence of a wireless charger, but I don't see the appeal to the added expense / careless use of our resources.

-ryan

I dont believe that current wireless charging is anywhere close to 90% efficient.  Part of the point of an EV is that we arent wasting energy.  Is plugging in a single cable really that difficult?