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[protomech]

Revisiting this topic again.. discussed earlier.. but hopefully with some words from offthegrid : )

The stock Delta-Q QuiQ chargers for our bikes is a 1 kW unit, I believe it is the 72XX. The 72XX is listed at 72V nominal, 100V max with a max DC output of 12A.

Zero officially supports 4 of these chargers in parallel, for a combined DC output of 48A. They list a 2.0 hour 95% charge with this configuration, which seems a little odd given the 120 Ah battery rating.. but perhaps the BMS locks out the lowest discharge point.

Offthegrid uses 2x Elcon PFC2500 chargers (2x 35A) in combination with 3x Delta-Q chargers (3x 12A) for a total DC output of 106A, or slightly more than twice the 4x Delta-Q setup (approximately 0.88C). He reports this gives him a charge time of less than 1 hour. Delta-Q draws 5A @ 230V AC, 9.5A @ 120V AC, PFC2500 draws 12A @ 230V AC ..

The Elcon PFC2500 (pdf manual) is available from a number of vendors, including Evolve Electrics for $665, EV Assemble for $540, etc. This model is marginally larger than the stock Delta-Q chargers on our bikes; offthegrid mounts his chargers one on each side behind the rider's knee.

So my questions are..

1. How are these configured on the DC output side? Is it as simple as connecting the + outputs of each charger together and then to the battery + terminal, and likewise with the - terminal?

2. How are these configured on the AC input side? Is it as simple as joining the hot, neutral, and ground wiring? How do you handle charging on either multiple 110v circuits or one 240v circuit?

3. Offthegrid, do you have a schematic for your charger configuration? Did you build any additional safety precautions in (either for yourself or the battery)? How do you connect at the Chargepoint EVSE (230V 30A and 120V 15A) .. 2x PFC2500 + 2x 72xx on 230V, then 1x 72xx on 120V?

4. Also @ offthegrid, how are you connecting the J1772 inlet? As I read it.. the fixed AC supply (EVSE) provides the J1772 pilot signal, we just need to provide a resistance between pilot and ground? Do you have anything like a custom charge controller to manage or log the charging units?

I was kind of hoping Zero would put together a more manageable 240V charging setup ..

[NoiseBoy]

Im glad to see you colonials are adopting the correct 240 Voltage. 

I was looking at the elcon chargers myself as one of the PFC2500 could run from a normal mains socket here.  Not that i currently need to charge faster at the moment but may do in the future.  Is the BMS actually involved in the charging?  The DeltaQ uses a 4 pin connector so i assume the 2 inner pins are used as a control voltage from the BMS?  I doubt it would actually be in circuit so could be bypassed for use with a bigger charger.

[Electric Terry]

The Elcons are rather difficult to install.  Their charge profile I had to build a custom algorithm for, even after they programmed it at the factory.   The way it was sent would have damaged the batteries.   Until someone has used all 4 Delta Q's, I would steer clear of any other brand charger for now.  Not that many on this forum couldn't do it correctly, but the chance of failure and damaging the charging circuit or overcharging the batteries is high if you are not 100% familiar with how every part of the motorcycle is built and works together.

The side port handles only 30A wth a 10awg connection, and the back port a 30A fuse with a 12awg cable.  You can upgrade the fuses to a 40A fuse, but without opening the battery box, you can't use more than 2 delta Q's from the back port and more than 3 from the side port.  Each Elcon puts out the equivalent of 2.5-3 Delta Q's.

The AC input side is as simple as described above.  Just parallel any charger cable to your AC input, whether it be 120v or 240v.  I have quick disconnects so I can use at RV stations, Welding outlets, dryer outlets and of course J1772 stations.  Some are limited by amps like 30A RV parks so the ability to use 2 separate 30A 120v connections is important. 

There is another charging method I use, but I am extremely hesitant to publicly post it on a forum as the chance for a mistake is very high.  But if someone has used 4 delta Q's and needs additional charging, PM me and I'll tell you how to go higher.  Keep in mind Zero does not support this and it will void your warranty.  But I don't expect any PM's for a while.  For one I'm on the road and will need some time to explain, and 2nd I don't know of anyone else using 4 onboard chargers yet, so do that first and see how you like it. 

if I get a 2013 eventually, I'll ether sell my bike as is, or sell my charging system, part or in full to anyone who wants more charging capability.

[protomech]

May be a case where a little knowledge is dangerous.

[firepower]

Knowledge is not dangerous, only ignorance, and more knowledge shared the better for all.
off the grid is a EV pioneer pushing the boundaries. Good on ya mate!

[Doctorbass]

congrat Offthegrid for your great trip

Hmm.. I have 4 deltaQ charger for the 2011 zero... i wonder what i'll do with them.... ... but they are big and uggly!

The delta Q are great because they are sealed.. but there is also another solution wich is those great 48V server power supply that are are much smaller.. 3 to 4x for the same power!!.. so for my 2011 i could hide two of them under the seat and 2 at the oem charger location and still have room..

I think that on the LiMn cells of the 2011 and later, the limitation is more related to the max charhing C rate of the cells and the thermal management inside the battery assembly...

[NoiseBoy]

Seeing as the Sevcon can already rectify AC, as in Regen, would it be possible to throw a contactor and feed lower voltage AC from a transformer into the controller, trick it into thinking its regen and charge the battery?

When it says 25% regen what does it mean? If you span the motor at maximum rpm would you get 110A out?

[Richard230]

Seeing as the Sevcon can already rectify AC, as in Regen, would it be possible to throw a contactor and feed lower voltage AC from a transformer into the controller, trick it into thinking its regen and charge the battery?

When it says 25% regen what does it mean? If you span the motor at maximum rpm would you get 110A out?

My sepex GPR-S was set for 100% regen and it seemed to produce about half the power that it consumed at similar speeds when given full throttle.  But that only occurred for a short period, as you are on closed throttle just a fraction of the time, compared with being on the throttle.  According to my power meter, the regen provided between 1 and 3% of the power consumed over a typical trip, depending upon how many hills I had to climb and then coast down.

[Biff]

The sevcon takes 3phase AC, and can't see a line-line voltage of more than 120V peak, and you would need to trick the sine/cosine encoder inputs.  It would be a real challenge to get it to work, it would probably be easier to just get a powerful motor to spin the wheel or motor to act as a generator, or actually just make a charger yourself.

In terms of the regen, the % is % of the maximum torque (or current) the motor can produce.  So the 2012 S can do 42ft lbs of torque (420 A RMS/phase) , so at 25% that is something around 10ftlbs (100A RMS/Phase).  There are also battery current limits which may come into play at higher speeds where 25% torque might produce more power than the battery is supposed to handle.

-ryan

[BSDThw]

The recharge from motor/converter to battery is limited to 200A 50A the current from battery to motor/converter is set to 600A.

You could change the settings, but I don't know if there is a technical limit for the 200A.
I was wrong it is not enabled with our settings
 
Data sheet:                                        ZF6                                 ZF9
                            
Nominal electric charge                80 Amps hour                   120 Amps hour
continuous charge “C” rating             0.5 1/h                              0.5 1/h

but no information of peak charge!

[NoiseBoy]

Does the controller actually care about the 3 phases though?  Could you just feed one phase or the same supply into all 3 phases?

I also came across OpenEVSE which seems pretty interesting.  You can build what is essentially a J1772 charging station for about $200 using Arduino and some bits and pieces.  If i had a clue what i was doing with embedded computing i'd have a go. Terry may be using something similar to charge from camping sites etc. through the J1772 port?

http://blog.lincomatic.com/?p=464

http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/OpenEVSE_boards?tm=6

[trikester]

I'm confused here. I thought that all of the charging had to go through the BMS on the bike because it was balancing individual cells, while the charging was taking place. This is how it works on my model airplane Li-poly batteries and I assumed it was similar on our bike batteries. Am I mistaken about the balancing during charging (by the bike's BMS) action? 

Trikester

[BSDThw]

I have no internal information of the BMS, so it is what I guess.

The BMS will be feed through the 2 DC sockets and do all the battery manage / balancing.

I think the SevCon use a different path for the current, because 600A will not easy be lead over the BMS switches ( but only a guess ).
Charging through the SevCon (as it will do with regen) will unlikely not support the BMS management therefore the SevCon settings are trimmed to under- and over voltage protection.
[ Over voltage start cutback     101V / Over voltage limit 103V ]
[ Under voltage start cutback  58V / Under voltage limit   54V ]

I think for an "emergency" charging it could work but for a regularly charger it would need more communication with the BMS to maintain the battery proper.

The next point if you feed in the motor lines, you have to disconnect the motor or it will be propelled.

Using only one phase will never work with the SevCon, it is a 3 Phase without Neutral.
You need always a symmetric Load with such a technology.
 

Could you just feed one phase or the same supply into all 3 phases?

Never you need 120° between each phase.

Do you have 3 Phase grid in US? I am unsure with your electricity system.
I know you have sometimes 2 phase with 180° so you can double your voltage 240Vrms. But I never saw a 3 Phase 120° system at a private home ( please correct my I would really like to know how it is done there ).

[trikester]

Do you have 3 Phase grid in US? I am unsure with your electricity system.

Most three phase power, in the US is at commercial / industrial buildings, not residential. I have 208 VAC, three phase, to run the mill, lathe, saw, etc., at my shop but not my home. It wouldn't be available to me at my residence even if I was willing to pay big bucks for it.

Before I got my shop in an industrial area, I had three phase machinery at my home. To run those machines I built a DC to 3 phase AC (solid state) converter using a large IC designed for that purpose. I used power mosFET's to drive the AC outputs. Someone could also do that, I guess, to charge the bike battery through the regen ckts, as has been discussed here. Seems like a lot of extra work to me.

The system would have to be "fooled" into thinking the power was coming from the spinning motor without the motor being involved.

Trikester

[lolachampcar]

It would seem that a nice upgrade would be to switch from the single DeltaQ to a single PFC2500.  The PFC data sheet indicates sealing to IP46 which I assume is not sufficient to allow mounting directly to the bike.  AC current draw seems limited to 12 amps RMS for both 120 and 240 volts so standard sockets should support the draw.  Faster charging would be achieved by using the higher input voltage.

A charge algorithm that is proven would be nice.  Is this something that can be shared?

If the charger is not sufficiently sealed, perhaps using it though the side charging port would be an option (although 36 amps through 10 gage may not be wise).

With respect to the BMS, I was under the impression that these dynamically balanced the cells during charging by bleeding current from higher voltage cell groups to bring them down to their neighbors.  In addition to this function, does the BMS have the ability to shut down or terminate charging?