Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Richard230]

No doubt most of us think about Zero's product design/development/marketing approach every time we buy, or think about buying, one of their motorcycles.  Zero is advancing their technology rapidly, with huge improvements every year. But this makes it tough on their recent customers and their dealers who buy (or sell) the latest and greatest electric motorcycle, only to discover that the next model to come out in a few months has better performance and design, potentially making their current bike a bit of a dog and reducing its resale value substantially - making it tougher to buy that next shinny new super model.  This can turn you into a troll, waiting for the next fatter billy goat to cross the bridge, instead of eating the one in front of you and if you wait too long you will starve to death.   

On the other hand, you have the Brammo approach. They spend years developing a new electric motorcycle model, thereby making everyone wait until it is finally perfect before selling the model to the public.  With that long a period between new models, when you finally purchase the bike, you are relatively assured that its resale value and geek factor will remain relatively stable for several years, until the next new product can be designed, fully developed and manufactured at a slow and steady pace.

Personally, I think that Zero's current method is the best one for the future of the electric motorcycle market at this time, even if it does tend to drive away some customers, or make them feel like they are taking a financial bath if they decide to buy a Zero.  By taking chances by rapidly developing the technology, Zero is also taking a big risk by having their customers be the beta testers for their new designs and not every customer will appreciate being put in that position - especially when something goes wrong, like the "glitch".  While, I am really impressed with the way Zero deals with problems like this, considering how small the company is, it does make it tough on both the customer and their dealers to have to deal with a product that might not be fully baked.

Still, this is the only way to rapidly advance the technology that doesn't really exist right now.  Zero's approach really kicks the ball into the air, but sometimes it comes down on the customer's head. 

So which approach do you think is the best for the customer and for the future of the electric motorcycle manufacturer and the electric motorcycle market? The Zero method of kicking the ball into the air and hoping to hit the goal quickly, or the Brammo method of keeping the ball on the ground to be sure it gets there? I think you could make an argument for each approach.

And then we have the major motorcycle manufacturers who seem to be waiting for someone else, like Zero or Brammo, to develop the technology, infrastructure and customer base for them before actually moving in to swoop up the crumbs.   

[Electric Terry]

I agree Richard.  I think pushing the lastest technology and improvements every year is good.  But you are absolutely correct, the costly recalls and issues after bikes are in customers hands and the uncomfortable inconvenience and frustration this causes is the downside.

If I can get a 2013 soon enough, I'm pretty sure I could find most problems there could be in the first 5000 miles or so or about a month to 6 weeks, whichever is first.  At least that's how it worked with the 2012.  Maybe I should extend that offer that to them as it would be a win win for everyone.  Surely they have one that is somewhat ready now I'd think.

[protomech]

No guarantees that a longer release cycle will have zero - or even fewer - bugs .. after all, Brammo is developing a significantly more complex powertrain.

When technology is improving very rapidly, spending significant amounts of time refining a design can cause you to be left behind.  I feel like the Enertia Plus is at that point now; it was competitive with the 2012 Zero bikes (halfway between the XU and S), but against the 2013s it is somewhat less competitive. XU has a higher top end, is cheaper, and may offer similar (or better) real world range.

Likewise, the Empulse (IMO) was quite a ways ahead of the 2012 Zero models, albeit also more expensive. The 2013 Zeros have caught up in power and offer the tradeoff of very fast offboard charging vs slow onboard charging. Brammo had a significant range and power advantage over the 2012 $14k model, partly justifying its higher price.. but no longer does vs the 2013 $14k model.

If Brammo continues to sell the Empulse in 2014 and 2015 with no design changes, then they will need to reduce the price over time as Zero releases annual refreshes. The Empulse is a very solid base and per Wes Siler's comments seems like it could easily handle more power .. and its Sevcon Size 6 controller is hardly being tapped .. so that may be the approach they take. Fewer complete powertrain overhauls vs Zero (In 2013 Zero will have used 3 different battery cells, 3 significantly different motors, and 2 significantly different controllers in the span of 3 years), but perhaps small iterations.

Agree with your first point about you have to jump in some time. Just like with computers.. if you wait for the knee of the curve to appear you may be waiting a long time.

[cirrus pete]

If I were an investor in e-motos, I would certainly prefer Zero's approach. It gives you more exposure test the market and gives the company some real cash flow to help with the burn rate. And, as a buyer of e-motos the "big bet" approach with Brammo, taking years to develop the product burning through more and more capital would scare me. I don't know who is backing them, but unless they have deep pockets and lots of patience, it is a harrowing road to hoe.

[ZeroSinMA]

No doubt most of us think about Zero's product design/development/marketing approach every time we buy, or think about buying, one of their motorcycles.  Zero is advancing their technology rapidly, with huge improvements every year. But this makes it tough on their recent customers and their dealers who buy (or sell) the latest and greatest electric motorcycle, only to discover that the next model to come out in a few months has better performance and design, potentially making their current bike a bit of a dog and reducing its resale value substantially - making it tougher to buy that next shinny new super model.  This can turn you into a troll, waiting for the next fatter billy goat to cross the bridge, instead of eating the one in front of you and if you wait too long you will starve to death.   

On the other hand, you have the Brammo approach. They spend years developing a new electric motorcycle model, thereby making everyone wait until it is finally perfect before selling the model to the public.  With that long a period between new models, when you finally purchase the bike, you are relatively assured that its resale value and geek factor will remain relatively stable for several years, until the next new product can be designed, fully developed and manufactured at a slow and steady pace.

Personally, I think that Zero's current method is the best one for the future of the electric motorcycle market at this time, even if it does tend to drive away some customers, or make them feel like they are taking a financial bath if they decide to buy a Zero.  By taking chances by rapidly developing the technology, Zero is also taking a big risk by having their customers be the beta testers for their new designs and not every customer will appreciate being put in that position - especially when something goes wrong, like the "glitch".  While, I am really impressed with the way Zero deals with problems like this, considering how small the company is, it does make it tough on both the customer and their dealers to have to deal with a product that might not be fully baked.

Still, this is the only way to rapidly advance the technology that doesn't really exist right now.  Zero's approach really kicks the ball into the air, but sometimes it comes down on the customer's head. 

So which approach do you think is the best for the customer and for the future of the electric motorcycle manufacturer and the electric motorcycle market? The Zero method of kicking the ball into the air and hoping to hit the goal quickly, or the Brammo method of keeping the ball on the ground to be sure it gets there? I think you could make an argument for each approach.

And then we have the major motorcycle manufacturers who seem to be waiting for someone else, like Zero or Brammo, to develop the technology, infrastructure and customer base for them before actually moving in to swoop up the crumbs.   

Having spent my career in the technology biz, I guarantee you that failure to deliver is no clever business strategy on the part of Brammo.

The Enertia was so much less than Brammo advertised that dealers refused to sell it, or so local dealers tell me.  Best Buy gave up on the Enertia after less than two years despite Best Buy Capital having invested $10 million into Enertia production. BBC also skipped the B round. Brammo sold fewer than 50 Enertias.

When Zero leap-frogged Brammo with the 2012 Zeros, Brammo came up with the Enertia Plus to try to catch up but has still not delivered that product. At this point it's safe to say that Brammo has abandoned the Plus and has bet the farm on the Empulse. They are hoping to capture the high end of the e-motorcycle market and leave the mid-range to Zero. But every year that they fail to deliver the Empulse gives Zero time to iterate on all aspects of the product. That is how products improve in the real world, not in gigantic leaps as you suggest is Brammo's strategy. By the time Brammo delivers the Empulse, if ever, it will be behind Zero in many areas of refinement that come with repeated iteration on design, and possibly in the only positive area of differentiation: speed and power. 

I have no doubt that Brammo has good engineers and marketing people. The problem can be traced Brammo's leadership. Mechanic put it best over on the Elmoto forums:

Let’s look at Bramscher’s last four business ventures;

-   The Rogue Super car- Many, many promises- EPIC Fail (never even turned a wheel)
-   The Atom Ariel business- Gone
-   The Carbon Fiber manufacturing business- Fail
-   The Brammo Motorcycle (10’s of millions invested, 6+ models promised, 1 delivered)- ugly, sold < 50, Failing

Let’s look at announcements/plans

-   Deal with Best Buy- EPIC Fail
-   Deal with Flextronics- not relevant and not functioning
-   New corporate HQ (2 new buildings, test track)- poorest use of funds imaginable
-   6 speed gear box- marketing smoke and mirrors that is a technical embarrassment
-   Worst of all- standing firm that the Enertia “scooter” is capable of freeway speed/range vehicle (almost killed someone) EPIC FAILURE

Let’s look at the positives
-   More tweets than any other start-up
-   Err… that’s it… O wait there are the Brammo Babes (a desperate act of improved self worth and blatant confidence inspiring tactic by the big man himself. Must make all the teams wives proud that Brammo’s greatest publicity accomplishment to date was to hire some models for a few hours)

http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2020-2012-Brammo-(Enertia-Plus-amp-Empulse)-Delivery-schedule/page7
 

[CliC]

As a customer, all I know is that I'm riding my Zero, minor warts and all, and I'd be still waiting on an Empulse. I'm not sure there's any good way to break into a market like this from an investor point of view, but if it were my money I'd prefer Zero's approach there, too.

That said , if the Empulse turns out to be trouble-free and readily available,they will take some of the high end away from Zero. But new riders and dirt enthusiasts will undoubtedly prefer Zero's pricing and wider range of offerings.

[protomech]

The Enertia was so much less than Brammo advertised that dealers refused to sell it, or so local dealers tell me.  Best Buy gave up on the Enertia after less than two years despite Best Buy Capital having invested $10 million into Enertia production. BBC also skipped the B round. Brammo sold fewer than 50 Enertias.

I've seen the 50 unit sales number thrown around before. Not sure I quite believe it - there are approximately 20 Brammo owners that have posted at one time or another via the Brammo Owner Forum. The last count I did on the 2012 owner registration thread here was around 25 owners, and the number might go up to 30-35 if you count people who have posted here indicating ownership but have not posted to the owner thread.

Claiming > 40% of Brammo owners post on the primary unofficial forum when < 10% of 2012 Zero owners post to the primary unofficial forum seems like a bit of a stretch. But it could be true, nonetheless - Zero certainly has more international exposure and sales than Brammo did.

I'm curious how you think the Enertia was less than Brammo advertised. Let's not forget the contemporary Zero street bike claimed 60 miles of range from a 3.6 kWh battery, using the same bullshit maximum capacity rating still in use today.

When Zero leap-frogged Brammo with the 2012 Zeros, Brammo came up with the Enertia Plus to try to catch up but has still not delivered that product. At this point it's safe to say that Brammo has abandoned the Plus and has bet the farm on the Empulse. They are hoping to capture the high end of the e-motorcycle market and leave the mid-range to Zero. But every year that they fail to deliver the Empulse gives Zero time to iterate on all aspects of the product. That is how products improve in the real world, not in gigantic leaps as you suggest is Brammo's strategy. By the time Brammo delivers the Empulse, if ever, it will be behind Zero in many areas of refinement that come with repeated iteration on design, and possibly in the only positive area of differentiation: speed and power.

Revisionist history? The Enertia Plus is clearly an iteration on the original Enertia design .. not a response to the Zero bikes, and certainly not a response to the 2012 Zeros when the E+ was announced nearly two years ago : \

I'm mystified by Brammo's continued failure to deliver on the Enertia Plus, but I can only think the holdups could be manufacturing issues or battery supply issues. They use the same cells in the Enertia Plus as the Empulse - I expect them to deliver on both bikes at once.

At least by specifications, the Empulse is slightly faster than the 2013 Zero S both in acceleration and top speed. I'm looking forward to a comparison test of the two bikes - it'll be a good comparison of revolution vs iterative evolution.

I have no doubt that Brammo has good engineers and marketing people. The problem can be traced Brammo's leadership. Mechanic put it best over on the Elmoto forums:

Let’s look at Bramscher’s last four business ventures;

-   The Rogue Super car- Many, many promises- EPIC Fail (never even turned a wheel)
-   The Atom Ariel business- Gone
-   The Carbon Fiber manufacturing business- Fail
-   The Brammo Motorcycle (10’s of millions invested, 6+ models promised, 1 delivered)- ugly, sold < 50, Failing

Let’s look at announcements/plans

-   Deal with Best Buy- EPIC Fail
-   Deal with Flextronics- not relevant and not functioning
-   New corporate HQ (2 new buildings, test track)- poorest use of funds imaginable
-   6 speed gear box- marketing smoke and mirrors that is a technical embarrassment
-   Worst of all- standing firm that the Enertia “scooter” is capable of freeway speed/range vehicle (almost killed someone) EPIC FAILURE

Let’s look at the positives
-   More tweets than any other start-up
-   Err… that’s it… O wait there are the Brammo Babes (a desperate act of improved self worth and blatant confidence inspiring tactic by the big man himself. Must make all the teams wives proud that Brammo’s greatest publicity accomplishment to date was to hire some models for a few hours)

http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2020-2012-Brammo-(Enertia-Plus-amp-Empulse)-Delivery-schedule/page7

Oh yeah. Mechanic was the one that came up with the 50 sales units number. Oddly he also never backed up his sales unit claim. Plenty of vitriol, though.

Though I'm disappointed that seven months later Brammo still has not shipped the Empulse or the Enertia Plus, my response there stands.

I agree that their primary failures to date have been of failing to both deliver and communicate with their would-be customers. Their technical chops are top-tier and their prototype racing effort deserves the accolades they have received. But clearly there are significant internal failures (even if the failures stem from suppliers), and those failures smell like mismanagement to me as well.

[machone]

As protomech says, it is yet to be seen whether or not the Empulse has less gliches than the 2013 Zeros so I don't think there are really different approaches, just different success rates.

As a customer I don't like the marketing or high early adoption price of either Zero or Brammo but I don't know if it was the same at the birth of the ICE motorcycle at the turn of the last century, it probably was. We'll have to wait a hundred years for our grandchildren or great grandchildren to recover the cost of our early adoption of these bikes, if we keep them.

I think all too often firms underestimate their market, when if they believe in their product all they need to do is be straight about what they are producing and why it costs what it costs, unless they are trying to hide something...

I think lightning's approach would be best - say very little then produce something that will 'knock your socks off'. Having said that both Brammo and Zero are still growing so their approach is working, what do I know?

[dahlheim]

i can't say i have the financial/marketing knowledge others have, but it would seem to me that Brammo has continually delayed launching several previously announced products.  they could only be doing so to correct problems and/or add/refine features.  if they are trying to keep up with the technology curve, that can't be sustainable unless they have an awful lot of spending cash.

even with zero announcing it's new 2013 product line the very fist night i commuted to work on my new 2012, i am thoroughly pleased to have purchased what is to me a very polished bike that's super fun to ride.  i am a very technically oriented gadget-head and am used to seeing new products surpass what i have.  that's just the way it goes.  zero has the right idea.  commit to a design, do it right, and sell it.

i might have purchased a Brammo, if there was something worth purchasing available.  waiting for that next big thing doesn't work for buyers like me, either.

[Richard230]

I think the Enertia Plus is aimed at the Euro market as a city commuter.  Who knows what is going on with the bike right now? Maybe Brammo is waiting for the Hong Kong police to give it a wringing-out to verify its reliability before they put it on sale to the public.   

A report on the Brammo forum claims that Brammo switched motor manufacturers a few months ago on the production Empulse.  That could certainly explain the lag in getting the bike to market this summer, as was originally planned earlier this year.

One thing that both companies are getting is a lot of experience in lightweight, high performance, electric vehicle design experience and knowledge. This knowledge from the "School of Hard Knocks" could be worth a lot to a major corporation that wants to enter the EV field, such as Polaris, who has heavily invested in Brammo.  I am not sure who might be lurking in the wings in the Zero zone. But I surmise that their EV knowledge is ultimately worth more than any profits that they might make by selling electric motorcycles, considering the cost of their R&D each year and the low volume of sales compared to most other manufactured products.

[ColoPaul]

I get the feeling that ZeroSinMA doesn't like Brammo?  

I agree with CliC:  As a customer this spring I was ready to buy an emoto - the ZeroS was "good enough", available locally and all Brammo had was a website and a promise.   So I'm on a Zero S.   Whatever that says for the marketing differences of the two companies.

Regarding Richard's assessment about "Customers being the beta testers" I certainly feel that way.  3 recalls, a month in the shop for the glitch, a bad motor, and now going back to the shop to get my fuel gauge issue resolved; all in the first 6 months.    Yikes.   But who knows if Brammo's approach will be any better?

I'm not really feeling "Gosh, I've only had my new bike 6 months and Zero's already obsoleted it".   My bike, the '12 SZF6 approximates the '13 XU5.6;  the '13 XU is $1000 less, same power, same range but I don't like the styling.   However I can see the '12 SZF9 is outclassed by the '13 SZF8.5;  same price, but way more power, better charger, cleaner and nicer looking.

Like Richard, it does seem probable that Zero will be bought out in the future.

[kingcharles]

Brammo resembles Vectrix in a way.
Vectrix started the E-scooter development in 1996 and delivered the first bikes in 2006. That is 10 years development.
They did not survive because the battery technology they used had become obsolete and their implementation of it (in order to get some range) caused many battery failures. Their bike is still a great product by the way. I drove the Vectrix and BMW E-scooters at Intermot this year and although the BMW is faster, the Vectrix handles better and has the cool throttle. So those 10 years of development still count.
But sales were dissapointing and battery replacements under warrenty caused them to go Chapter 11.

So:
Brammo needs to hit their sales targets (which are set unrealisticly high) and avoid product defects if they want to stay alive.
But good engineering will last longer...

[manlytom]

I had a chat with some senior HD (as in Harley Davidson) guys - they were very interested in the bike and is application as well as what the rider thinks. In particular keeping both bikes or eventually reducing to one only (as in the Zero). Asked as well if it is more a utility for me or more than that. I mentioned it is great fun to ride, throw around etc. So in fact a bit more than just a utility.

As for Zero, believe they are on the right way to keep the bike simple, deliver a great commuter / run about bike. Longer term range and super fast charging will come anyway. If Zero can focus on what they have, create a culture around it. And really they are best positioned for this with focusing on the electrics only. Other makers, like KTM or BMW are having their positioning and struggle to place the electrics properly - it will always be a fight vs their "traditional" bikes.   

anyhow, want more for Oz !

[ZeroSinMA]

I've seen the 50 unit sales number thrown around before. Not sure I quite believe it - there are approximately 20 Brammo owners that have posted at one time or another via the Brammo Owner Forum. The last count I did on the 2012 owner registration thread here was around 25 owners, and the number might go up to 30-35 if you count people who have posted here indicating ownership but have not posted to the owner thread.

Claiming > 40% of Brammo owners post on the primary unofficial forum when < 10% of 2012 Zero owners post to the primary unofficial forum seems like a bit of a stretch. But it could be true, nonetheless - Zero certainly has more international exposure and sales than Brammo did.

I'm curious how you think the Enertia was less than Brammo advertised. Let's not forget the contemporary Zero street bike claimed 60 miles of range from a 3.6 kWh battery, using the same bullshit maximum capacity rating still in use today.

When I started looking at the product available in this market in 2010 I could not imagine why anyone would want a e-motorcycle that looks like a giant throat lozenge on wheels but when I saw a string of posts on Best Buy's site from Brammo employees, friends, and relatives with no negative or real data whatsoever I knew the thing was a POS. Brammo showed up at a local dealer with two bikes but could not get them working to demo them. To this day they won't look at Zero either because they figure all e-motorcycles are POS. Thanks, Brammo.

Revisionist history? The Enertia Plus is clearly an iteration on the original Enertia design .. not a response to the Zero bikes, and certainly not a response to the 2012 Zeros when the E+ was announced nearly two years ago : \

You still don't get it. Brammo announces products. Zero actually builds the products they announce and ships them. For revenue.

Who announced what when? Who cares?

I'm mystified by Brammo's continued failure to deliver on the Enertia Plus, but I can only think the holdups could be manufacturing issues or battery supply issues. They use the same cells in the Enertia Plus as the Empulse - I expect them to deliver on both bikes at once.

I'm not mystified. Look at the track record of the guy who's running Brammo.

At least by specifications, the Empulse is slightly faster than the 20

Let's say Brammo actually finally ships the Empulse in 2013. If Zero maintains their proven rate of annual product improvement then by the fall of 2013 Zero will announce, say, a 75HP 150+ mile range bike to ship in 2014, giving Brammo siz to nine months of market advantage at the high end. They've already lost it at the mid-range by not shipping a Enertia Plus to compete with a 2012 Zero. 

Referring back to the original thesis of this thread, is it Brammo's "strategy" to then give all of the market over to Zero for another two or three years as they have for the past two years while Brammo works its magic on coming up with a revolutionary product for 2017?

My point is that the revolution versus evolution thesis of this thread is preposterous. 

The IC bikers on this forum have to get their heads around the fact that e-moto is a tech business, unlike the ICE bike market. The development cycle is driven by improvements in battery tech, drivetrain, usability. As in the mobile computer business, miss a development cycle and you're dead. As I've said, Brammo is already dead, they just don't know it yet and apparently neither do a fair number of ICE bike folks who don't understand that this is a different game.

Revolution vs iterative evolution? No. Fail versus win.

Oh yeah. Mechanic was the one that came up with the 50 sales units number. Oddly he also never backed up his sales unit claim. Plenty of vitriol, though.

Though I'm disappointed that seven months later Brammo still has not shipped the Empulse or the Enertia Plus, my response there stands.

I agree that their primary failures to date have been of failing to both deliver and communicate with their would-be customers. Their technical chops are top-tier and their prototype racing effort deserves the accolades they have received. But clearly there are significant internal failures (even if the failures stem from suppliers), and those failures smell like mismanagement to me as well.

It's all about management: the right people and organization for a new industry as the technology develops.

Zero's investors by hiring Walker actually understand the dynamics of the industry and the kind of leadership that's needed to break out.

To hire Bramscher and leave him in charge? Geez. Relatively speaking, Brammo's investors are cavemen scratching in the dirt with sticks. 

[ZeroSinMA]

I get the feeling that ZeroSinMA doesn't like Brammo?  

I agree with CliC:  As a customer this spring I was ready to buy an emoto - the ZeroS was "good enough", available locally and all Brammo had was a website and a promise.   So I'm on a Zero S.   Whatever that says for the marketing differences of the two companies.

Regarding Richard's assessment about "Customers being the beta testers" I certainly feel that way.  3 recalls, a month in the shop for the glitch, a bad motor, and now going back to the shop to get my fuel gauge issue resolved; all in the first 6 months.    Yikes.   But who knows if Brammo's approach will be any better?

I'm not really feeling "Gosh, I've only had my new bike 6 months and Zero's already obsoleted it".   My bike, the '12 SZF6 approximates the '13 XU5.6;  the '13 XU is $1000 less, same power, same range but I don't like the styling.   However I can see the '12 SZF9 is outclassed by the '13 SZF8.5;  same price, but way more power, better charger, cleaner and nicer looking.

Like Richard, it does seem probable that Zero will be bought out in the future.

I don't know anyone at Brammo. It's nothing personal.

It's not that I don't like Brammo it's that I dislike companies that behave the way Brammo does.

As an organization they are incompetent and dishonest.

Not the engineering team. They may be excellent. Maybe Zero can hire some of their guys. I don't know why they haven't mutinied or gone on strike by now. Or maybe they have and that's why there's no product.

The bloggers and motorcycle rags won't call them out because they don't want to risk the advertising revenue.

Someone has to call a spade a spade.

I have owned two Zero's and put thousands of miles on them. Once -- once -- I had one no start from a stop. Shut off and restarted and that was it.

Compared to ICE bikes and early Macs I've owned each of the two Zero's I've owned have been as reliable as a toaster.