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[dahlheim]

When I told my wife that I had decided to buy the 2012 DS model even though my 2010 DS wasn't even a full two years old yet, she said; "well you know they will keep imroving them, why not wait until some future year's models come out. My reply; "I'm 77 years old. How many years should I wait to start riding an improved version"? Her answer; "oh".

Trikester

BTW - Spent today cleaning out the carb on my Yamaha conversion trike. Ugg! 

god (or what ever floats yer boat) bless you, man.  may the miles slide effortlessly under you.

[dkw12002]

I'm curious about the 2013 sealed motor and have two concerns: 1)heat and 2)moisture. Over at Endless Sphere, one of the engineers did several experiments with sealed motors and found they could not be sealed. Moisture found a way in. The solution was to put holes in the motor housing so that at least the moisture could escape and the motor dry out.  Different motors of course, but it is a concern. Secondly, we all know heat is your enemy with any electronics. I see some fins on the new motor, but haven't heard about the fan. I wrote Zero about these concerns but haven't heard back yet. Anybody know how the new motor will control heat? I think the moisture concern will just have play out one way or the other.

[Richard230]

It looks to me like the motor controls heat like my Triumph Bonneville controls its heat - it is just a big lump of metal with fins and acts like a heat sink.  From a cooling air management system you would think that the fins should have been radial so that when moving the breeze would blow past the fins. Having the fins located at 90 degrees to the wind seems less than optimal to me.  Some early IC motorcycle engines used this system of cooling, but those tended to make very little power. As power production increased, the fins were realigned in the direction of travel to deal with the heat produced.  But air cooling, especially cooling that relies on the vehicle movement rather than fan forced air, will be a limiting factor for increased power production.  My guess is that Zero will eventually (and soon) have to convert their motors to water cooling, as Brammo has done, to control heat if they plan on installing more powerful motors in their future vehicles.

Speaking of controlling heat in motors, I just found out that Honda used air cooling to cool their car motors, right up to the introduction of the Honda Civic during the mid-1970's.  (Honda started making automobiles in the very early 1960's. They even introduced a car to the U.S. called the NC600, which used a motor that was air cooled by forced air ducted around the engine.  The story goes that Mr. Honda didn't trust water cooling so he stuck with air cooling as long as he could. Eventually, he threw in the towel and Honda cars have been using water cooling ever since, as does most of their high-power motorcycles.) The NC600 cars were originally sold and serviced by some of their motorcycle shops (have a friend who used to work on these cars at the San Mateo Honda shop during the early 1970).  Here is a photo of an AC600 that I took last month at a car show. The motor may look water-cooled but what you are seeing is actually a shroud enclosing the engine through which air is forced to cool the motor.  I understand that Honda put a lot of R&D into that system to get it to work right.

[trikester]

A local Honda car dealer had one of those on display, as a attention getter, a couple of years ago. I very much wanted to see the engine but the guy couldn't get the hood open for some unknown reason 

Trikester

[protomech]

The new Zero motors (75-5 and 75-7) are completely passively cooled. No fans, just heatsinks.

I suspect they're very efficient, which translates directly into less heat generation. Zero had to gut and redo the Motenergy ME0913 motor's cooling system; I suspect their clean slate design is a larger improvement.

Passive cooling tends to be heavier (true for computers as well as bikes) - and so the ZF8.5 is heavier than the ZF9, the motor may contribute something to this.

I don't think moisture will be much of a problem. The Motenergy motor is completely exposed.

WRT Honda, even the CBR250R and their 50cc scooters are liquid-cooled. Honda has one or two air-cooled dirtbikes and that's about it.

Honda also developed in the 1970s a vortex combustion system called CVCC which allowed them to pass US emissions standards (for a time) without adopting catalytic converters. The CVCC system was pretty complex, an engineering marvel but a repair nightmare.

[CliC]

The industrial motors used in a lot of plants are sealed; they're known as  TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled). There's a shaft-driven centripetal fan on the end that blows over external longitudinal fins. They can run for years sitting out in the weather, though sometimes steps are taken to make sure the motors' innards are kept above ambient if they are idle for long periods, mostly to avoid condensation. They seem to resist water intrusion well enough, so Zero's approach is not infeasible.

The difference in those and the Zero motor would be power density. A typical 50 hp 1750 rpm industrial induction motor is probably 10x the size and 20x or more the weight of the Zero's permanent magnet synchronous one.

[Richard230]

A local Honda car dealer had one of those on display, as a attention getter, a couple of years ago. I very much wanted to see the engine but the guy couldn't get the hood open for some unknown reason 

Trikester

Here is a photo of the Honda's motor. This owner managed to get the hood open.   

[Richard230]

At the risk of getting far off the subject matter of this thread, attached is a photo of the Honda's car original MSRP window sticker, which you are unlikely to ever see again. As you can see prices have gone up a little since this car was offered for sale. 

[af1 racing]

Thovas and I (Ed Cook) just got back from the Zero dealer meeting.  We got to ride all the new 2013s....they are AWESOME!!!

The new XU is better than last years S/DS.  Big jump in technology and power.  More volts, and better batteries.  Smaller chargers.

The two new motors are passive cooled motor, with the stator just inside right up against the housing.  Lots of cooling fins....they designed this motor for its exact application with a grant they got from the state of California.  No comprimises, and no overheating concerns even in Texas temps.

100% waterproof, as they said one big fleet customer is requiring that they can run submerged in standing water in so many feet of water.  They better waterproofed lots of other areas on the bikes too.

Got to tour the Factory on the way back to the airport.  Very impressed.....all MADE IN THE USA.  I really liked the dyno room that all new bikes get checked on.  We have a dyno too, and it was odd not seeing exhaust fans (no fumes) like we have to have for the gas burners we normally play with on the dyno.  Everyone we met was a passionate enthusiast about the technology and the brand.

Just like the jump from 2011 to 2012 in terms of power, technology, and range, these new 2013s make as big a jump as that, maybe even more.  The FX is really fast, I ripped some nice wheelies on it.   The throttle programming seems smoother, build quality is more refined.  The new storage compartments, seat, and mirrors make it great.  The new brakes are good too, they get Nissins for all models.

[cirrus pete]

Thovas and I (Ed Cook) just got back from the Zero dealer meeting.  We got to ride all the new 2013s....they are AWESOME!!!


100% waterproof, as they said one big fleet customer is requiring that they can run submerged in standing water in so many feet of water.  They better waterproofed lots of other areas on the bikes too.

Hmm, need waterproofing, has stealthy noise characteristics... Did you know whether that "fleet" customer also requested hard-points for weapons systems.

[dkw12002]

Thanks for that info, Ed. Do you think Zero is planning to offer factory discounts on the leftover 2012 models? Realistically, the difference in performance between a 2013 and 2012 would be slightly less important to me since I already have a fast bike. If the price difference is just a couple thousand, I'd go with the 2013, but at a discount of $3000 or more, the 2012 would start to look good.

[manlytom]

yeah - any firmware upgraded 2012s - I load onto a container and off to Oz. So throw a line.

[lolachampcar]

Thanks for that info, Ed. Do you think Zero is planning to offer factory discounts on the leftover 2012 models? Realistically, the difference in performance between a 2013 and 2012 would be slightly less important to me since I already have a fast bike. If the price difference is just a couple thousand, I'd go with the 2013, but at a discount of $3000 or more, the 2012 would start to look good.

I'll bet there will be a few used MY12s available   or at least one.

[trikester]

I'll bet there will be a few used MY12s available Smiley  or at least one.

Make that at least two and I can throw in a 2010 DS as well.

Trikester

[af1 racing]

Thanks for that info, Ed. Do you think Zero is planning to offer factory discounts on the leftover 2012 models? Realistically, the difference in performance between a 2013 and 2012 would be slightly less important to me since I already have a fast bike. If the price difference is just a couple thousand, I'd go with the 2013, but at a discount of $3000 or more, the 2012 would start to look good.

yes, we've already started discounting the 2012s, and Zero is kicking in some credits too.

We have the 2012 S-ZF6 demo left, a new DS-ZF6, a demo X, and a new XU left in 2012s.  We've already ordered our first batch of 2013s with delivery sometime in January.

side note, we got your old 2011 S model going again....the brush holder in the motor exploded, brush dust all over.  The new motor installed is working just fine.