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[paul]

Well i have to say i'm a little miffed as my ZF9 limited edition is due to arrive in a crate from Belgium next week.  Having said that the 2013 range looks great and i imagine in the future it would be relatively simple to 'upgrade' to 2013 parts without having to buy a whole new bike.

Anyone else wondering what the ZF11.4 with a size 6 controller would be like?  I know i am.

With some considerable trimming to the rear of the frame and a new heatsink with completely a different rear mounting bracket, a Size 6 Sevcon on a '12 or '13 S/DS should be somewhat workable. 

The bodywork that covers the heatsink will need heavy trimming, if it still fits at all, but being able to shoehorn in a Size 6 was considered during the Size 4 integration.

[trikester]

Upgrade I've already discovered that I won't be able to upgrade my 2012 DS to a 2013 sealed motor.  The new motor has entirely different mounting, and also mounts to both ends, so that area of the main frame has been changed considerably, to accommodate the new motor mounts.

Trikester

[wainair]

I learned a long time ago never buy something just before a product year/model change and never look at the new line up in the year after buying something. You'll only regret what you were happy to have before. Go enjoy your 2012 models and come back to looking at the new features in the fall of 2014. If trends continue, Zero will have advanced so much ranges will be infinite and the bikes will have a zero point energy source!! LOL 

[ZeroSinMA]

I learned a long time ago never buy something just before a product year/model change and never look at the new line up in the year after buying something. You'll only regret what you were happy to have before. Go enjoy your 2012 models and come back to looking at the new features in the fall of 2014. If trends continue, Zero will have advanced so much ranges will be infinite and the bikes will have a zero point energy source!! LOL 

Exactamundo. If you were willing to forgo a year of riding a 2012 and held out for the 2013, then waiting had its reward, but you gave up a year of riding. Wait another year until 2014, even greater reward. But then you've missed two years of riding. In the long run time is on your side with Zero. They keep making these bikes better and better they way Apple makes iPads and iPhones better. But as JK Galbraith said, "In the long run we're all dead." At some point you got to start enjoying the ride and accept the fact that a Zero does not become obsolete like a ICE bike that improves in dribs and drabs.

[Richard230]

That is why I gave up waiting for the Brammo Empulse to arrive. I figured that it was a better bike than the 2012 Zero, but the Zero was here and the Empulse wasn't. So I bought the Zero and have ridden almost 3000 miles and saved a lot of $$$ not buying gas to transport me those miles during the past 8 months.  Plus, the Zero came out just as summer arrived, whereas the Empulse would have arrived (if their latest delivery schedule holds) just as winter makes its appearance, with its rain, wind and cold weather.  Not as much fun and fewer opportunities to ride.

[dkw12002]

I doubt anyone on this forum is going to be happy with last year's model for the foreseeable future. The advances are just too dramatic and more importantly, most forum members are not just casually interested in e-motorcycles. Some of you guys are obsessed! I mean that in a good way. You'll just have to trade every year just like you probably do with your phone and computer. I will be looking at the 2013 S rather than the 2012 myself. Now about that money saving thing. It's a good theory, but in practice, I don't see it.   

[NoiseBoy]

One of the major selling points of zero was the potential for uogrades, in the same way you swap out a new graphics card in your pc you could swap out a new battery pack in your zero but it seems they have lost sight of that by changing rhe motor mounting etc.  It removes a major USP over ICE bikes.

[Lipo423]

I cannot agree more with dkw12002.
A few number of members do like/love/are "obsessed" with anything attached to electrical bike innovation (including me  )

And I'm afraid that mostly of the 2013 model components are new, so no 2012 upgrade (I would bet that this includes de new 11,4Kw battery pack)...do not discard being able to get bigger capacity packs in the future for the 2012 "old" models, but mostly of us would not own the bike when this packs would be available...we will have the new model 

Wait and see...

[machone]

Agree with all of the above. It's looking likely or 'very likely' that EV technology will continue to develop fast. One of the things that was very attractive about the Agility bike was the unwritten promise of upgradeable battery and motor. If things continue to develop so fundamentally so fast EV manufacturers will have to address future proofing(to an extent) their products. My 2013 S order is a big commitment for me, financially, as would the 2012 S have been or the Empulse. The 2013 is just about enough for me in terms of range and performance but if a 2014 model appears with double the range and half the 0-60 time then I can't help but become unsatisfied with what I've got, it's human nature. Such a big improvement has a negative effect on resale values too, making upgrading very expensive. I don't know about anybody else but spending ten thousand a year or even every two years to keep up is not viable. I hope they make the 2013 models upgradeable but I am sceptical. I was told that Zero would keep the same 'technology' and by that I read 'platform' for two years, but they would say that, wouldn't they?

[lolachampcar]

That last post NAILs the key business issue for Zero.

There is no developed secondary market for the bikes.  The technology is also moving very quickly.  Zero is a small and young company.

Add the above up and you have the potential for the company to concentrate on the new at the expense of their customer base.  If they pour all their energy and resources into creating new products they will eventually run out of well healed early adopters or hard core adopters that will spring for the kind of money that it takes to get one of these bikes.  Granted, there is a very large European market which will increase the available pool of buyers but Zero will eventually run out of the initial pent up demand.  If they do this while simultaneously abandoning their initial customers feeding a secondary market by upgrading to the new hardware, they may find themselves in a short term boom that keeps their startup head above water while shooting themselves in the long term foot by doing little to nothing to control the total cost of ownership.  Allowing that number to get out of control opens the door wide for eventual competitors. 

Let's face it.  The Zero solution is simple and really should be obvious to anyone with reasonable technical skills.  If I am correct in this statement, then it is business acumen and long term vision that will determine if Zero makes it.  They have a golden opportunity with the electric bike technology discontinuity to establish themselves as a viable niche player with long term staying power.  It can be done; I know from first hand experience.  It can also be blown; I know from first hand experience.

I contacted Zero's CEO regarding the trade in / resale issue as soon as I saw the new line up.  I'm getting the large battery MY13 DS no matter what happens so it is not a make or brake issue for me.  However, if they leave the rest of their owners to fend for themselves on the open market and make no attempt to underwrite a secondary market, resale prices will be low and total cost of ownership will be high.  Zero can head this off by driving their dealers to support an active trade in program and Zero driven secondary market.  They are the market maker and have access to the potential customer base.  A good number of the contacts that have developed will be price sensitive and open to a factory certified pre-owned unit with warranty.  It will cost Zero short term margin to support this effort but I believe it will pay long term dividends.  It will also increase turn over in their dealers which will strengthen those relationships.

I mentioned earlier that I contacted Zero's CEO about this.  I caught him at a show in Germany.  His responses were mostly consumed with telling me how well the show was going which indicates a laser focus on shareholder/fundraising/marketing interests.  He responded to my questions with a "we will look at it".  I followed up asking him to contact me when Zero has come up with something.  In the absence of this post, I doubt I will hear from him/Zero.

Nothing in the above should be taken as a dis to Zero.  Kudos for generating a great product and actually SHIPPING it.  I write the above from the vantage point of having crashed and burned in several start ups and actually succeeding in one.  The short term pressures are overwhelming and it takes great strength to survive them without sacrificing the future.  I want to see Zero succeed.  I want to see them around after Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki finally pick up the ball and run with it.  It will happen.  The question is how long will it take Zero's proving and growing the market before they feel it is substantial enough to get in.  How long will it take legislators to figure out that bikes have utility now (yea, I looked at the Leaf and it has less utility than my 9DS) and thus can help prove that electrics are real?  When they figure it out, the big guys will start feeling the pressure. 

I'm an engineer so, until the Zero, I was not a believer.  I got my Zero and a week later I put a deposit down on a Model S.  The return argument is not there yet but there is now real utility to electrics.  With more players, the cost of ownership will come down.  I think electrics are finally here.  I have a vested interest in Zero as I am a current and future customer.  The question for me is will Zero be here four years from now. 

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Richard230]

I agree that Zero will eventually need to settle down and develop their models once the technology matures. But I think they have to continue to improve the models every year as long as that can be done.  That is the only way to advance the the performance of electric motorcycles and make them more desirable to future customers.  I also understand that current customers will be left in the dust.  But I don't see any other way for them to proceed, if we want the best performance available as soon as possible.  In my case my 2012 ZF9 Zero S meets my transportation requirements, no matter how good the new models are.  Fortunately, I can afford to buy a new one and take a loss on my current bike if I had to.  I think this is just something that we are going to have to live with for a few years.  The alternative is to have a company like Brammo that fully develops the technology for several years before placing their models on sale to the public. But that has its flaws, too.  Just pick your poison. 

[machone]

Totally agree that this rate of development is good news and necessary. I wasn't implying that Zero's current bikes aren't fully developed, just that they're not developed to allow for an upgrade.

I understand that it will be difficult to design a bike frame to fit the current motor and battery but also be adaptable for the next generation powertrain. Not impossible, but difficult. We also know that a trade in scheme as lolachamp mentioned is possible, not easy or cheap but possible.

If everybody was just content with what they had because it did the job they wanted it to do then most of us should still be driving around in the model T Ford.....some of us are, but not many. Nobody buys a Monster, a Speed Triple, a BMW 1000RR or a GSXR because 'it does the job they want it to do'. Apart from an organ delivery courier, who needs that sort of performance? Like it or not, it's a competition thing - it's nice to know you've got the fastest on a straight, round a bend, on a country lane. Cheapest to run is something but if it's always challenged with 'but how much did it cost?' it becomes less of a boast.
 
It may be just the early adopter price to pay and  I'm under no illusions about how long it will take for my 2013S to become obsolete. However,  it would be nice if the designers thought about the extra money they could make selling the next gen powertrain for 'old' model owners to fit who aren't content with a slower shorter range bike because they can't afford 10k every year for an upgrade.

[CliC]

I figure all I have to do is avoid test-riding the new models. That way, I'll continue to be happy with the one I have

[machone]

Remember to avoid parking near one or riding in the same area as one either! When mine becomes out of date around December next year I'll be looking for a home brew expert to do some tweaking!!

[trikester]

I figure all I have to do is avoid test-riding the new models. That way, I'll continue to be happy with the one I have Smiley

I own a 2010 DS and a 2012 DS. I can hardly wait until I can test ride a 2013 FX. 

Trikester