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[Richard230]

As you know, electric motorcycles are very useful as a utility vehicle and non-sporting transportation.  Many current riders complain that they are not fast enough and too boring.  That may be true at the moment, but apparently Honda thinks that slow and boring, with good efficiency is the way of the future.  It looks like they are investing a lot in this future.  Their new NC700 range of motorcycles only make about 48 hp and typically get 70-80 mpg.  Not something that is likely to be on the cover of many motorcycle magazines performing a wheelie or stoppie, but they will get you around cheaply.  Now it seems like Honda is even going further in that direction with a larger range of slow, efficient models as discussed in this story:

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/honda-nc700s-bigger-brothers-planned/21444.html

If this trend takes off with customers, then there will be less resistance to the lower performance of electric motorcycles, although the purchase price will always be an issue for the economy-minded buyer.  Still, it fits in with my type of riding.  But I have no idea if basic two-wheel transportation is going to be the wave of the future in the U.S. and European countries.  I guess time will tell.

[protomech]

48 hp is enough to embarrass most cars.

I think a shift from hp/L to mpg is a good one. Particularly if it's coupled with aerodynamic improvements.

[ColoPaul]

Very interesting question.   What is the motivation for someone to have a "utilitarian" motorcycle?  Random thoughts:

In developing countries, a motorcycle as your only vehicle is common.  But the motivation is poverty.  They would all buy a car if they could.

In densely populated/high traffic areas, a motorcycle is easy to park and easy to get through traffic.  So you'll see a lot of them in Paris, for example.

There are ~25 riders where I work who commute on a motorcycle - but not one of them are doing it in a "utilitarian" sense.  It's all about the cool, macho factor.  $25,000 Harleys and custom leather jackets.   Or 160HP sport bikes with flamboyant graphic helmets.

In Norway, electricity is nearly free due to all the hydro;  gas is around $10/gal;  and there are all kinds of government incentives for EV's.  However, EV ownership is around 0.14% (highest in the world).  What does it take to get people into EV's?

[Richard230]

What does it take to get people into EVs?  A "gas crisis" like we had during the 1970's.  When you can't buy gas, suddenly being transported by electricity doesn't sound all that bad.   

[protomech]

Partly it's time and experience. Mainstream EVs are still very new - in most parts of the US they have only been available for about six months. Most people have limited experience with batteries: lead acid in vehicle starter batteries, NiMH rechargeable AAs, lithium ion batteries in laptops and cell phones. It will take years and years to demonstrate that EV batteries are significantly more durable than these, if they are.

Partly it's up-front costs. I think that up-front costs will significantly overwhelm range considerations as charging infrastructure rolls out and people get used to being able to recharge while out and about. Again, this may take time.

[trikester]

Remember that lithium based batteries may only be an interim step to something better. Even the lithium technology itself is improving rapidly in the labs. The development work now being done with "super capacitors" looks promising. The advantage there is charging in a matter of minutes. If recharging the energy storage device only takes about as long as it takes to fill a gas tank, then recharge time will no longer be an issue.

Trikester

[mehve]

Yeah, plenty enough folks at work on two wheels. But other than a 150cc scooter and my Zero, all others are Ducati's, Harley's and sport bikes. A couple insist on the noise as a life-saver, or would prefer the high perf sport bikes. But, at the mention of trying to arrange a demo day at the office, a dozen different guys became really interested. (No luck yet with the actual Demo Day, though).

+ m

[protomech]

I'm going to bring the Zero to the car / bike show at work next month. It's gotten a lot of interest from people that have seen me suiting up, one guy even ran down from his office to catch me as I was walking in.

I think a good part of improving interest in EVs is moving them from something people see on the news / web to vehicles people see driving around doing everyday things. Makes the ball slowly roll from "I suppose EVs are nice and all, but who would buy one? seems too risky" to "gosh, must be working for him. wonder if it would work for me."

[Richard230]

You know what they used to say.  "You meet the nicest people on a Honda."  Maybe it is time to bring back that saying for electric motorcycles.  Wearing a black leather jacket and "colors", a beer belly, a beard, a shirt saying "if you can read this the bitch fell off the back" and making a lot of unnecessary noise whenever possible, seems to be the public's vision of motorcycle riders.  I think it is time that version of a motorcycle rider started changing.   

[dkw12002]

I don't see it happening. While a few older people might like a bike like the nc700s, younger people, not so much. They go for Ninjas that are faster, lighter, flashier. If they want utilitarian, they wear a backpack. Even I would much prefer a new Ninja 300r at 376 lbs. and 100 mph vs. the 460 lb. underpowered nc700s even if it does get a couple mpg better fuel economy. When I think utilitarian, I think scooters with all that built-in storage. When you see urban areas of Asia and Europe, scooters are the utilitarian vehicle of choice for the masses. If gas prices went sky-high, it would be scooters that would catch on mostly, I think. A 125 cc scooter works on all roads except the interstate and gets like 80 mpg and might cost $2,000. That's pretty cheap transportation. A 50cc scooter followed by a bicycle would be the only thing cheaper. For electric bikes to replace these small scooters in any meaningful way in the world, the price of gas would have to be way more than $10 a gallon. Perhaps if gas got to $50 a gallon, but then, electricity wouldn't be cheap either. We need some kind of breakthrough in battery technology for electric vehicles to compete in the forseeable future. Right now, they are mostly a novelty and rich man's toy. 

[Richard230]

Well, I won't argue with you about that dkw12002.  You make sense - as long as gasoline remains available.  But it is interesting to see Honda apparently trying to steer the market in a different direction.  Marketing larger versions of the NC700 sure doesn't seem like a product directed at the third world to replace their scooters and step-thus, so it is unclear to me where they intend to sell these things and to whom.   

[ColoPaul]

While a few older people might like a bike like the nc700s, younger people, not so much. They go for Ninjas that are faster, lighter, flashier. When I think utilitarian, I think scooters with all that built-in storage. When you see urban areas of Asia and Europe, scooters are the utilitarian vehicle of choice for the masses. If gas prices went sky-high, it would be scooters that would catch on mostly, I think. A 125 cc scooter works on all roads except the interstate and gets like 80 mpg and might cost $2,000.  For electric bikes to replace these small scooters in any meaningful way in the world, the price of gas would have to be way more than $10 a gallon. Perhaps if gas got to $50 a gallon, but then, electricity wouldn't be cheap either. We need some kind of breakthrough in battery technology for electric vehicles to compete in the forseeable future. Right now, they are mostly a novelty and rich man's toy. 

Wow, that is a good summary.   I would argue however, in the US, gas prices are not strongly tied to electric prices, only 1% of our electricity comes from oil.  If there's a serious middle east war, gas could skyrocket and electricity could remain relatively constant.

Some thoughts:

Since an emoto is a "novelty and rich man's toy" then maybe Brammo will outsell Zero even though it's at a higher price because it's "faster & flashier"?  Why do people buy emoto's anyway?  "Green", "Low Operating Costs", or "Novelty"?  Or something else?

Assume batteries get cheaper.  At what price point would people prefer a SZF9 to a $2000 125cc scooter (with $3/gal gas)?  With $10/gal gas?   

Or is it more the charging hassle (long charge times, lack of easy charge points) that drives people to a ICE scooter and not the purchase/operating costs?

[ed5000]

Around here in the bay area you see a lot of BMWs with the parallel twin cylinder engine just like the Honda NC700X has/will have.  I think Honda just wants in on that part of the market.

[ColoPaul]

Old topic,  new article:

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21578097-motorbikes-are-now-prized-their-thrift-rather-their-glamour-hells-commuters

"The new popularity also points to a wider money-saving trend. In pinched times, motorbikes are valued more for their usefulness than their speedy glamour. Many of the riders on these mid-range models are commuters."

[kcoplan]

If we ever address climate change (a BIG "if")  gasoline will have to become a whole lot scarcer and more expensive (my own personal guess is that it will take $25-$30/gallon gas to cut US emissions by the necessary 80%).  If that happens, companies with proven super-efficient vehicles (be they gas or electric) will have a leg up in the market.

--Karl