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[manlytom]

whatever that "bothan spies news on asphalt on rubber" is ....

I sincerly hope he does no influence Zero and rather this forum prevails with real life feedback.

Talking about "brammo killer" and orders have stopped etc..... these are different markets these companies target and with the Zero the one that currently simply delivers a product that works. and that is a very fun product within its area.

so please, feedback that Zero shall improve their package but please, please not try for gearbox, cooling, crutch rocket style stuff....

for more if you dare ...
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/zero-motorcycles-2013-brammo-empulse-killer/

my closing for the weekend.

[protomech]

Bothan spies is a reference to star wars, "many bothan spies died to bring us the plans for the death star".

[trikester]

We need to tell ZERO to not add more trim and other uneeded stuff. The priority, at least for the DS should be to reduce weight for dirt riding without lowering range. Perhaps the DS should depart from being just a minor modification of the street bike and become a new design in its own right, with the focus on weight reduction and range.

If I was only going to ride pavement, especially freeways, I wouldn't care much about weight except in regards using up available range. On dirt, weight is a penalty in handling and recovery from upsets.   Beauty trim is a waste of potential weight savings.

The reason I ride the DS instead of the now street legal dirt bike is the extended range and also more pavement riding but I want it as light as reasonably possible and do both riding jobs well.

Trikester

[dkw12002]

I agree. Weight is your enemy. The higher the power to weight ratio, the better. Heavy bikes handle like boats and kill the fun factor. So far Zero has done pretty well adding only the weight necessary to get better range and speed. I like the fact Brammo and Zero are trying to make fast track bikes. Some of that info and design may help with their production bikes. I hope Zero can get their S models to go an honest 80 mph and stay there though. An honest 80 mph with 88 mph possible for a short time and a highway range of 50 miles at 80 mph with a weight of no more than 300 lbs. would be a fantastic accomplishment. Thanks for posting this, Manlytom, it's the first I've heard about the 2013 model. I know people with 2012's were hoping for an option for an upgrade, but if the article is correct, that seems less likely.

[manlytom]

Bothan spies is a reference to star wars, "many bothan spies died to bring us the plans for the death star".

OK, gotcha - good one. "source: bothan Spies" ==> so hopefully not such  good spies as the ones in star wars that indeed were right with the plans.

so this guy wrote this then:
04/20/2012 @ 2:54 pm, by Jensen Beeler

[CliC]

I guess the sobering message to be inferred from this article, and general observation, is that none of these e-vehicle companies is making money yet, and the investors don't have infinite reserves of patience.

[ColoPaul]

I guess the sobering message to be inferred from this article, and general observation, is that none of these e-vehicle companies is making money yet, and the investors don't have infinite reserves of patience.

Very true.

[Doctorbass]

My guess about the next 2013:

1-New battery cells suplier... higher performances than the already high performance EIG cells!
2-New motor: probably a ZERO made motor as i already heard years ago..
3-new chasis?
4- LED lights and turn signal?

Doc

[baumisch]

My guess about the next 2013:

1-New battery cells suplier... higher performances than the already high performance EIG cells!
2-New motor: probably a ZERO made motor as i already heard years ago..
3-new chasis?
4- LED lights and turn signal?

Doc

So your are not bying this "brammo-killer" thing?
When will the 2013 models be announced? When were the 2012, 2011, 2010 models were announced? end of the current year or beginning of model year?

[Lipo423]

I really question Zero following the Barmmo route for 2013...Why?

- The NPD process would give them virtually not testing time, and we have seen what happened to Brammo with the Empulse...
- They would make the bike heavier, and far more expensive, which would lead them to narrow their potential customer base and to "challenge" the investment payback (Invus would not be happy about this)
- We "users" still complain primarely about "range", while battery prices are still in the $1000/Kw
- The bike EV industry is not as mature for such a vehicle segmentation

I would back up more Doc's approach + a few others (brakes, suspensions?, 2Kw charger, looking, etc...)still a big improvement in the current ZF line with a far lower investment

[protomech]

I think Zero will retain the EIG cells. The ZF9 power is hardly tapped @ 5C constant = 40 kW, 10C peak = 80 kW. The motor puts a max of 28 hp = 21 kW to the rear wheel, the controller probably draws no more than 26 kW from the battery.

They've retained the Molicel cylinder cells for 6 years (2006 Electricross - 2011 bikes). I can't really see them switching to another battery chemistry yet unless the cost or performance are significantly better. Maybe Neal Saiki's new battery interconnect technology + Panasonic cells?

I think they will largely carry over the ZF6 and ZF9 bikes, but drop the prices to $9995 and $11995 respectively. IMO the $17k Empulse will be an easy purchase decision over the $14k 2012 Zero S ZF9, whenever it goes on sale. Add a faster charger, standard J1772, and drop the price to $12k and the 2013 ZF9 is much more competitive.

In 2011 Zero brought several production S bikes and a prototype bike (rider Jamie Perugini) to Refuel at Laguna Seca. The 2011 production S bikes were turning in 2:25 - 2:34 laptimes. The prototype bike turned in a 2:11 laptime.

In 2012 Zero brought several production 2012 S bikes and a prototype bike (rider again Jamie Perugini) to Refuel. The three fastest laptimes for the 2012 production S bikes were 2:09 - 2:12. The prototype (2011 MX w/ dual Agnis) turned in a 2:00 laptime.

I have a completely unfounded suspicion that the prototype bike in 2011 was a powertrain tester for the 2012 production bikes, with EIG cells, Sevcon controller, and Motenergy motor. Similarly, I wonder whether we'll see a dual Agni powertrain in a production bike next year - maybe in a sportbike?

A couple of other dual (or doubled) Agni designs have popped up recently - the forthcoming Agility Saietta R and the Rovska concept. Traditional dual motor / single controller designs have proven to be very unreliable in racing, but a dual controller or a modified single motor design could be a better solution. LMC has a "V-twin model available for increased power, larger motor in development for mid 2012" .. I'm convinced that Agility is using this motor in the R. I wonder if Zero is planning to use it as well.

Last year Zero announced the 2012 bike range at EICMA in November. Bikes went on sale in January 2012. I think we'll see news on the 2013 range at EICMA this year.