Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[protomech]

PFC-20 is a maximum of 30A DC (with buck enhancement). Each Delta-Q is 12A DC maximum (I think they're the 72V models.. 48V is up to 18A). PFC-20 is 2.5x as fast as a single Delta-Q, but only slightly larger than a single Delta-Q.

[Electric Terry]

The weight is what is amazing!  If cost isn't an issue, the PFC-40 which is a little over 3 grand, weighs only 17 pounds.  The trouble is the PFC 40 is 40 amps output and the PFC 20 with buck is 20- up to 30 amps.  For less than half that price, the delta Q's are letting me charge at 48 amps!  and technically, the EIG C020 cells on the ZF9 can charge up to 60 amps if my math is correct and still be below the "recommended charge current" not even the max.  I heard the TTXGP guys were fast charging packs in 30 min at over 200 amps and the batteries showed no signs of loss of capacity.

zf9 20AH pouch cells 18s6p config  20AH * 6 = 120AH * (0.5C) = 60 amps recommended charge current

To do that would require 5 on board chargers on the ZF9

http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg

[Electric Terry]

Also notice the graph at the bottom right of that link above.  Charging at 1C (on the ZF9 would require 10 on board chargers!) capacity reached maximum around charge cycle 200 and stayed flat until about cycle 500 with 100% DOD.  Say that's just under 100 miles, the batteries are still being 'broken in" and range is improving until the bike hits almost 20,000 miles!  And not a hint of loss of capacity until almost 50,000 miles!  Although they were being friendly with the discharge of 1C as well.

[ColoPaul]

I have two confusions ( three if you count my girlfriend ) maybe you can help me out?

1) the EIG spec sheet:
http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg
states in one part:
  Cycle life at 25C: (1C charge/1C Discharge, DOD 100%) ... 1000 cycles to 80% Nominal Capacity
BUT the graph the offthegrid was pointing out gives the same conditions and shows a capacity of 95%+ after 1000 cycles.

2)

zf9 20AH pouch cells 18s6p config  20AH * 6 = 120AH * (0.5C) = 60 amps recommended charge current

How does that math work?  Where does "6" come from?

[Electric Terry]

To answer the second question first, the cells are 20 amp hours each and 3.65 volts.  There are 18 in series to give about 66 volts and 6 in parallel to give 120 amp hours. (108 total pouch cells) to charge at 1C that is 120 amps.  To discharge at the max 10C that is 1200 amps (less than 10 seconds) or a continuous 5C which is 600 amps.  Considering the Sevcon can only put out a max of 420 amps, the batteries are well, well under their max limitations.  You could almost power a second controller and motor.  That surely would split the load at 75mph and divide the heat between the two.  Hmmmm, TTXGP ideas anyone?  Sorry I got off topic, but yes the ZF9 has 120 AH.

And to answer your second question, the data points suggest 95% is the correct answer.  The cells that are 40 AH actually have more than 100% capacity after 1000 cycles:

http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/C040.pdf

[ColoPaul]

Thanks!  One more minor mystery regarding weight.  Each cell is ~.94 lbs:

ZF9 has 108 cells. (0.94*108=101lb)
ZF6 has  72 cells.  (0.94*72=68lb)

So from just batteries; there's a 33 pound difference between ZF6,ZF9. 
The Zero specs say the ZF9 is 44 pounds heavier than a ZF6.   Is it possible that the wiring, mounting for the extra 36 cells weighs 11 pounds?  Seems a tad high.  Is there other differences between the ZF6 & ZF9??

So the ZF6 weighs 300lb;  frame=22 lbs;  batteries=((33+11)*2=88 lbs;
Where is the rest of the 190 lbs?  Tires, Forks, Brakes, Seat, Motor, Black Battery Box, some electronics;  Can all that weigh 190 lbs?   I guess it all adds up.

[protomech]

ZF6 powerpack is 112 lbs.
Delta-Q is 9.5 lbs.
Frame is 22 lbs.
Motor is 29 lbs.

Out of 297 lbs, that leaves 124 lbs for seat, lights, wheels, forks, tires, cables, brakes, fairings, bars, instrumentation, etc.

[benswing]

I DID IT!!!  I rode 105 miles in one long ride this morning.   

I have a 2012 ZF-9 that started with 741 miles on it. 
The roads were pretty evenly distributed between 35-45-55 mi/hr. 
Eco Mode
I weigh 165lbs
Rode in aerodynamic position for much of the ride (or at least it felt that way!).
Hilly terrain with an elevation gain of 1,000ft.
Temperature 70 degrees at beginning of ride, 81.3 degrees at end of ride.
Basically rode from Montclair, NJ to Sussex, NJ (40 miles) and back then looped around Montclair for the final 25 miles since my battery indicator was showing zero bars.

At 86.4 miles the last bar disappeared, yet I rode about 20 more miles. 
At 105.0 miles there was a drop in power, but I squeezed out another 1.3 miles to get home.
Total mileage is 106.3 miles on one charge. 
This makes me optimistic that 114 is possible going at speeds with less air resistance, like 35 and below.  Also fewer hills would help.

[manlytom]

Great. So its definetly confirmed for a nice recreational ride.

[blake]

I also agree there needs to be a revised testing model. The number of potential customers asking about "real-world" range attests to that, if nothing else.

As for going 100+ miles, I'm too afraid of getting stranded to try it Maybe one day if I'm really close to home.

Agreed. I've been looking into buying a Mitsubishi i-MiEV electric car and I can't get anyone to tell me a worst case range (cold day, cabin heater on, highway speeds followed by traffic jam) that would reassure me that my wife can get to work and back safely in it.

[protomech]

Consumer Reports tested the MiEV.

The Mitsu caught a break by arriving during the mildest winter Connecticut has had in years. With temperatures hovering in the 40s and 50s, we averaged 56 miles per charge. That's woefully insufficient for drivers like us, who do not live in city centers. As springtime temperatures rose into the 60s and 70s, the i-MiEV managed to wring out 61 miles fairly reliably. And on one breathtaking occasion, it summoned up 77 miles. (Mitsubishi claims a range of 80 miles, but the EPA pegs it at a more realistic 62.) Our overall average so far is 59 miles.

Worst case is probably 81 mph (top speed) with the cabin heater on full blast. In those conditions it's probably 40 miles or so.

Traffic jam would probably improve the range over traveling at 80 mph .. except possibly when it is very hot or very cold outside.

Edit: Inside Line has a MiEV for a year. An early trip in April (1.5 mile city trip followed by a 48 mile highway trip) left them with a blinking turtle 45 miles into the highway trip, at which point they exited the freeway and completed the trip on surface streets. Total trip distance was 49.8 miles.