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[ZeroSinMA]

Appreciate hearing from 2012 owners about experiences with the new regenerative braking and coasting. How quickly do you slow when coasting in either sport or eco mode? Does it feel anything like engine braking on a ICE bike when in gear?  Does the regen braking feel natural or does the braking feel weird? Thanks!

[protomech]

Regen braking in eco mode feels a little bit lighter than [engine braking for] my 500cc gas bike, but it's enough that I can generally let off the lever and slow to 10 mph or so with no problems. Regen braking in sport mode is very light, almost unnoticeable.

Generally the braking feels quite good. Sometimes there's a bit of hysterisis if you have the throttle not quite resting on the neutral stop, eg the bike will do a pulse of regen then let off, pulse and let off, etc. Otherwise, I like it.

[Marshm]

I would prefer a selection for regen braking so the rider can choose.  I can see how higher regen braking in sport mode might be desired. 

[flar]

Not knowing much about the bike other than my seat of the pants feel on a test ride, I came to the conclusion (as I ran out of juice on 2 of their bikes during 1 test ride that the rear brake lever was hooked up to a regenerative braking switch.  At least on both the S/ZF6 and DS/ZF6 that I was riding it felt very anemic as a brake and I could hear a very machine like whining as I applied it.  When I was on blinking lights trying to make it back to the dealership I tried to extend the range as much as I could by using only the rear brake to slow down (and I had to help with the front brake to get it actually stopped when I couldn't cheat and roll through).

Does anyone know where I could look at an owner's manual online or confirm with their documentation that the rear brake triggers regen?  Or was I just imagining things in my range anxiety?

[craigq]

The XU manual shows regen braking active when the throttle is in the fully closed position. No idea for the S/DS...

[Richard230]

Not knowing much about the bike other than my seat of the pants feel on a test ride, I came to the conclusion (as I ran out of juice on 2 of their bikes during 1 test ride that the rear brake lever was hooked up to a regenerative braking switch.  At least on both the S/ZF6 and DS/ZF6 that I was riding it felt very anemic as a brake and I could hear a very machine like whining as I applied it.  When I was on blinking lights trying to make it back to the dealership I tried to extend the range as much as I could by using only the rear brake to slow down (and I had to help with the front brake to get it actually stopped when I couldn't cheat and roll through).

Does anyone know where I could look at an owner's manual online or confirm with their documentation that the rear brake triggers regen?  Or was I just imagining things in my range anxiety?

Flar, If you PM me with your email address, I will shoot you a copy of the 2012 S and DS 120 page owner's manual. It is about a 4 MB-size file.

On my bike, I find the regen in Sport mode to be barely noticeable. When in Eco mode though, it is much more noticeable, feeling more like a 4-cylinder IC motorcycle in 3rd gear with the throttle shut. I do not notice any increase in regen effect with the brakes on, compared with the effect with only the throttle closed, in either mode.   

[flar]

On my bike, I find the regen in Sport mode to be barely noticeable. When in Eco mode though, it is much more noticeable, feeling more like a 4-cylinder IC motorcycle in 3rd gear with the throttle shut. I do not notice any increase in regen effect with the brakes on, compared with the effect with only the throttle closed, in either mode.   

Just to be complete, you did say "with the brakes on" plural.  Have you tried just the rear brake?  Is there any way to measure that?  (I didn't see any "regen braking" light on the small dashboard so it was mostly seat-of-pants feel that I was going on.)

On the two bikes I rode the rear brake had a very odd feel to it which led me to that hypothesis.  To be sure, the bikes do have rear rotors and pads, but the pedal feel gave me no impression of the typical feel of pad against rotor and the response was the most anemic I've experienced.  Granted, rear brakes are usually not that beefy and are usually adjusted a bit low to prevent lockups, but this seemed to go beyond that.  And, I could stop the bike with the rear brake, but I had to press really hard to do it (harder than it would take to lock the rear on any other motorcycle).

(Keep in mind I've only owned 2 motorcycles and test driven or borrowed only about 7 or 8 others...)

One thing I would like to see is a 3rd mode, sport + heavy regen braking.  I don't see why I should have to give up max power to get good regen - the two should be independent variables.  Some electric cars allow you to control the regen braking settings which seems to be because new drivers can be thrown a little by the effect when rolling off the throttle, but in my test drive of a Tesla Roadster, which has fairly effective regen braking in all modes, I actually loved the behavior and grew into it nearly immediately.  (And, yes, I'll admit that I'm shopping electric motorcycles as a nod to have a poor-man's Tesla.

[Richard230]

Hello Flar. Yes, I have tried both front and rear brakes, individually and in combination. I couldn't tell that the regen effect had increased when using the brakes.

The Hayes brakes seem to have very hard pads and feel "wooden" in their action, when compared with the Brembo brakes on my BMW motorcycles. However, if you press on them hard enough, they stop OK.  The "Tiger" brand brakes on my GPR-S feel very similar in their action, however I had the controller programmer for that bike and could alter the regen effect from 100% to 0%, which made a dramatic difference, naturally.  On that bike, the regen is activated by the stop light circuit. Getting the right level of regen took a lot of trial and error. Frankly, the Zero is not bad in that respect. A lot of regen can be fun for a while, but then it becomes something of an irritation as you will slow down more than you really want to.

A Zero employee told me that they are working on a way to allow customers to alter some of the programming of the controller, which would likely include increasing the regen effect, but he didn't indicate if or when this may actually happen.

I received your PM and will be sending you a message shortly.

[flar]

Thanks for the manual!  It seems to indicate that it is controlled by a switch that activates when the throttle reaches the home position ("to coast without the regenerative braking, hold the
throttle just off of the fully closed position").  The salesman I went on the test ride with seemed to imply that the brakes would kick in regen braking.  It would certainly be nice to have the rear brake kick it in so that you had that option to coast effortlessly (without having to maintain pressure on the throttle) or to bleed off some speed with regen by just pressing lightly on the rear brake...

[RickSteeb]

I think the throttle needs to be the exclusive mode of invoking the regen, as the motor physically can't do both drive and regen at the same time.

I like the idea of customer-adjustable regen effect; e.g. I think it would be logical to have a stronger regen in sport mode, to compliment the stronger drive when you twist the grip the other way!

[Lipo423]

I have only tested a ZF9 once and I found the regen braking very light...I would agree with the suggestion of having in controlled by the throttle, as it makes a lot of sense -a different aspect is to find the right combination of switches & sensors between the throttle, motor & brakes.
I also found -as Richard pointed out- the brake pads a bit hard -you definitely stop the bike, but you need to brake a little hard for my taste.
I had the opportunity of driving a Tesla a few times -and the genen braking is very hard- but you get real energy back to the battery.
I guess that when thinking in a two weel drive vehicle you need to find a good compromise as if the rear wheel slips you could find yourself having a ride at the ground level 
In any case, I would definitely like to see more control from the user side on the regenerative braking.

[flar]

I think the throttle needs to be the exclusive mode of invoking the regen, as the motor physically can't do both drive and regen at the same time.

Since it is controlled by a switch anyway, and thus is "regen by wire", this would really just be two switches.  If the throttle switch isn't engaged, it won't do it anyway, but once the throttle switch is engaged then the rear brake switch can trigger either yes/no regen or low/hi regen depending on the mode or the rider's independent preference.  I could see it configured by default so that in ECO you get strong regen with just the throttle and the brake switch doesn't have any more to add and then in SPORT mode it gives light regen from the throttle (simulating what a typical rider might expect from engine braking on an IC motorcycle) and then the rear brake kicks it up to max regen.

[ZeroSinMA]

Thanks everyone for the replies and thoughts. One additional question: Does the regen make a sound? flar mentioned a whining sound. Any owners hear that?

All in all I'm of a mind to wait until the 2nd gen of the new Zero battery and regen tech... after they iron out the bugs ala the wooden feeling rear brake. And I expect they will add user adjustable capabilities that are programmable by iPhone via wifi, including the power curve and regen behavior. And I hope they add one gear. They don't need more than one to move the torque curve out beyond 45MPH.

[Richard230]

I don't notice any unusual sound when the regen is activated. But then I wear earplugs all of the time while riding.

The wooden brake feeling could most likely be resolved by installing more aggressive HH brake pads, which would improve the braking power also.  My guess is that hard brake pads were chosen because Zero thought that the assistance of the regen would allow them to us harder pads and thereby extend their life.  (It is also possible that the pads chosen were a little cheaper than more aggressive brake pads. It is also possible that different pads are not available for Hayes brake calipers.  I need to do some research on this company. )

[trikester]

On my 2012 DS ZF6 I have wondered if I can get more distance in town in SPORT or ECO? As far as I can tell there is no regen braking in SPORT mode, just the normal drag of the motor being turned by high gearing (big rear, small front). ZERO lit would also indicate that there is no regen in SPORT no matter whether you are braking or throttle at rest. It would seem intuitive that with regen in ECO one could get more distance (I'm speaking urban riding here). However, what I notice is that when I'm riding SPORT mode I can get off the throttle farther back from a stop and coast to where I do the final brake stopping. In ECO mode I'm on the throttle longer getting closer to the stop because the bike slows so quickly when the regen kicks in. Since ZERO says that only 25% of the energy is returned to the battery in regen (ECO) mode, my experience is beginning to indicate that the extra coasting distance I get in SPORT mode may balance out the energy return to the battery I get in ECO mode. This of course assumes that I do the same acceleration curve, in either mode, as I leave a stop. "Jack Rabbit" starts can really eat up the energy in SPORT mode, so that has to be made equal in both modes for the question I'm asking to be valid.

It would be interesting if a number of city riders would do mileage tests in both modes. My guess is that there would not be much difference but that is only from the small amount of testing I have done so far.

On the open highway there would obviously be no difference in the two modes, unless it was a lot of very steep hills where you could actually coast all the way down in ECO mode. I haven't found a hill that steep yet. 

Trikester