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Author Topic: Glitch  (Read 32757 times)

Electric Terry

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #210 on: August 24, 2012, 10:23:18 AM »

Zero's powertrain lead called today and chatted for a few minutes.

He said there are a couple of possible issues they're chasing - one is a faulty motor like jpaulus, one is an encoder that can drift over time and thermal / power cycles. They're looking at a new firmware released by Sevcon which supposedly can compensate for encoder drift. They're fairly confident encoder drift is what was causing my motor glitch.

He says arriving at a permanent solution for motor glitches is top priority for Zero. Sounds like they have some debugging ahead of them yet .. but hopefully they're making progress. I've been promised a regular (daily) update on the bike, and I'll pass that along.

Great info! Can't wait for the updates!
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Richard230

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #211 on: August 24, 2012, 09:09:23 PM »

I concur.  That is great news and it reinforces my faith that Zero will solve the "glitch" soon and keep us on the road without riding with a nervous twitch while waiting for the next power shutdown.
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Lipo423

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #212 on: August 26, 2012, 01:57:12 PM »

I have been following this thread regularly...As a good Latin, I trend not to be negative, and trust people, but life & experience have worked very hard in turning me into a -no words- but a facts & data guy...

- The first "glitch" was reported early February, and at the end of August Zero is still trying to figure this out...fine. Let's hope this Top Priority 6 months time-taken analysis will finish soon
- As someone with technicall product & manufacturing background I have a big conflict with this timeframe, which leads me to think their resources are busy in manufacturing & 2013 NPD
- Some of the forum members are risking their lives out there riding their bikes (I may be one of them)  :(

I'm not experiencing the glitch yet, although my motor/controller is starting to make a kind of "piiiiiiiiii" noise lately, and I feel a light power lost sometimes.
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Electric Terry

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #213 on: August 26, 2012, 07:54:20 PM »

Actually I am fairly convinced they have it solved.  And it tends to make sense.  As lots of us that got motor/controller recalibrations it would fix it for a few hundred miles then it would return.

The reason for this is it would recalibrate to the current positioning of the motor encoder in the back of the motor which is seated with an epoxy like potting material.  Over lots of high heat thermal expansions, this material would soften just enough that the encoder would shift position slightly.

One reason it tended to be fine for the first 2000 miles or so, and for those who had less than that, it occurred during summer.  In fact most of us had the majority of the issues during the hottest months when the motor was unable to dissipate heat as well due to a higher ambient temperature.

I believe the engineers are reporting their findings to Mr. Walker tomorrow and we should hear by mid week the official fix for the glitch.  It may be a simple trip to your dealer for a 30 minute motor swap, or if you live far from a dealer, a motor shipped in a box with R&R step by step instructions and a diagnostic kit loan to calibrate the new motor to the controller if you feel comfortable doing that sort of thing yourself.  Like I said in an earlier post, it's 1000 times easier than swapping the motor in a gasoline bike if you have ever done that.  If the key is off the contactor is open and no voltage is going to the controller and definitely not to the motor so there's no risk of anything if the wires touch anything, and you really can't screw it up as the 3 wires are clearly marked with permanent marker dots, 1 dot, 2 dots and 3 dots for easy reinstallation. 

If you're not comfortable doing that, I'm not sure what they will do, as it would be definitely be cheaper to send a mobile technician city to city to do quick motor swaps for customers than ship crates out to people then ship bikes to California and then back again.

Good news is I feel comfortable the fix is on the way.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 08:16:17 PM by offthegrid »
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dkw12002

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #214 on: August 26, 2012, 08:19:31 PM »

I cannot imagine Zero swapping out all the motors. I think the fix will be something else.
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Lipo423

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #215 on: August 26, 2012, 10:35:05 PM »

Hope you are right offthegrid. In these kind of business I love to be wrong.

Although I could do the fixing/changing myself, I'm lucky enough to have Zero's Spanish dealer only 40 miles away.
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Electric Terry

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #216 on: August 26, 2012, 11:24:19 PM »

Woah, I just saw a CNBC clip from early January 2012 with Scot Harden.  

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068136

I was playing it in one window doing work in another just listeneng to the words and the nice peaceful sound of the Zero accelerating, and all the sudden I froze and my eyes got big.  I heard it!!!! The "glitch".  The "noise" of the motor running against itself or out of timing.  A precursor at high speed to cutting out.  The sick, struggling, vibration causing "growl" instead of the clean, perfect jet turbine sounding soft "whine".

Check from 1:28 to 1:30 and you will hear it too.  When I replayed it i noticed whoever the rider is starts looking down at the bike while accelerating instead of safely looking in front of him, as he's probably trying to figure out what's going on.  

Interesting...  remember this is January this year
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 11:34:38 PM by offthegrid »
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Richard230

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #217 on: August 27, 2012, 03:59:39 AM »

I wonder what a new motor costs?  If Zero really had to replace the motor (and they couldn't stick the supplier for the cost), I would imagine that they would try to come up with a fix to replace or otherwise modify the encoder in the dealer's shop, rather than replace the motor.  Either that, or remove a few motors, rebuild them at the factory and use the rebuilt motors to replace the ones being removed and then return those to the factory to be repaired, etc.
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protomech

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #218 on: August 27, 2012, 04:22:28 AM »

Motenergy ME0913 is ~$800 from various sources on the internet. Zero uses a heavily modified ME0913, their cost is certainly much less - very likely less than shipping the bike back and forth.

If there are a couple of things which can cause the glitch, I suspect the motor is the least common of them.
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CliC

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #219 on: August 27, 2012, 08:09:42 AM »

Woah, I just saw a CNBC clip from early January 2012 with Scot Harden.  

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068136

I was playing it in one window doing work in another just listeneng to the words and the nice peaceful sound of the Zero accelerating, and all the sudden I froze and my eyes got big.  I heard it!!!! The "glitch".  The "noise" of the motor running against itself or out of timing.  A precursor at high speed to cutting out.  The sick, struggling, vibration causing "growl" instead of the clean, perfect jet turbine sounding soft "whine".

Check from 1:28 to 1:30 and you will hear it too.  When I replayed it i noticed whoever the rider is starts looking down at the bike while accelerating instead of safely looking in front of him, as he's probably trying to figure out what's going on.  

Interesting...  remember this is January this year

It's a bit hard to hear with the 120-dB announcer, but it's definitely there. Now I know what to listen for, lol. When the rider comes back in, he starts saying something from under his helmet, but they cut away from it pretty quickly :)
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trikester

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #220 on: August 27, 2012, 09:56:56 AM »

I don't see any dots on my motor wires.  ??? Got my bike in Feb of 2012, I wonder if they started marking the wires later?

Trikester
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Electric Terry

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #221 on: August 27, 2012, 11:53:28 AM »

I don't see any dots on my motor wires.  ??? Got my bike in Feb of 2012, I wonder if they started marking the wires later?

Trikester

They are on ends of the cables on the lugs.  Take off the plastic motor cover and you should see them. 
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Electric Terry

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #222 on: August 27, 2012, 12:40:19 PM »


It's a bit hard to hear with the 120-dB announcer, but it's definitely there. Now I know what to listen for, lol. When the rider comes back in, he starts saying something from under his helmet, but they cut away from it pretty quickly :)

Yes it is hard to hear a little.  I think because when it happens to me I literally have to make drastic moves as fast as possible I have learned to have a little bit of a conditioned adrenaline response when the bike does that.  Typing on a spread sheet listening to the interview with Mr. Harden and all the sudden I felt I needed to make a drastic decision.  Haha, then I reaized what happened.  I must have heard the noise in the video!  I backed it up 20 seconds to listen again and sure enough there it was.  Faint, but there.  I'm not sure who was riding it when it happened, or if they said anything to Scot or anyone, or if this is the only time it ever happened to this bike, but zero might have had one of the first bikes with the glitch in their possession the whole time.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 12:47:57 PM by offthegrid »
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firepower

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #223 on: August 27, 2012, 02:11:44 PM »

Can't watch the CNBC video on my Touchpad, maybe not allowed because I'm in Australia, is it on YouTube or can the bit showing the glitch be uploaded.








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Biff

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Re: Glitch
« Reply #224 on: August 28, 2012, 02:42:40 AM »

Woah, I just saw a CNBC clip from early January 2012 with Scot Harden.  

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068136

I was playing it in one window doing work in another just listeneng to the words and the nice peaceful sound of the Zero accelerating, and all the sudden I froze and my eyes got big.  I heard it!!!! The "glitch".  The "noise" of the motor running against itself or out of timing.  A precursor at high speed to cutting out.  The sick, struggling, vibration causing "growl" instead of the clean, perfect jet turbine sounding soft "whine".

Check from 1:28 to 1:30 and you will hear it too.  When I replayed it i noticed whoever the rider is starts looking down at the bike while accelerating instead of safely looking in front of him, as he's probably trying to figure out what's going on.  

Interesting...  remember this is January this year

To me that sounds like belt noise. Try tightening your belt, or applying some silicone lube, or whatever lube is recommended by the manufacturer.

-ryan
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