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[gadget123]

do you think the zero x or mx is worth buying this model year (2012) even though they have brushed motors? i just ordered the zero x and now i am wondering if i should just just change my order to the ds since i want off-road capabilities and i want something on which i can commute about 25 miles roundtrip. but mostly i want the newest technology. if they are most likely replacing the brushed motors with the new brushless then i would rather wait.

anyhow, does anyone have an opinion on the 2012 zero x or mx...especially regarding the motor?

thanks

[Harlan]

If you plan on using it to commute, I would recommend the DS, not only for the brushless motor but for the extra range.

[zap mc]

IMHO the off road capabilities of the DS are limited, the two machines are very different, the X is confidence inspiring, light and very quick to change direction and the road bikes are cumbersome by comparison. I would strongly urge you to try both before you commit money to them, even if you have to travel. You will see that the X is a 7/8th size bike and the DS is a full size bike. A test ride is worth a thousand words...

It is interesting to note that Zero have not updated these models with the brushless motors and you are right to question as to why this is? Maybe they have unintentionally made the X and MX slightly obsolecent by not including them in the upgrades. maybe also ask what spec Brammo are running with if and when they produce their bikes. If you can wait till 2013 then check out the BRD offering which will be at the 2012 Powersports Dealer Expo in Indianapolis, February 17-19, as it definately has a brushless motor and looks to have a spec that will trump both Zero and Brammo.

[Harlan]

I agree with what zap mc says in that they are very different machines.  If you plan on using this as only an off road bike, the Zero MX would be the best choice.  The Zero X is geared a little higher for better top speed but is less torquey off the line and has the light kit installed for street use.  The Zero DS is a bit heavier, 100lbs heavier for the ZF6 and 140lbs for the ZF9.  The ZF6 would be sufficient for you purposes and it does pretty well off road although if you don't plan on using it as a commuter, the former would be the better choice.

If you do choose to go with the DS, the chain conversion offers more options to regear and give you more punch off the line and will make it a more competent off road bike.  There is also a Fox shock available for better off road performance depending on your needs.

The brushed motor works great off road.  Problems with the brushes arise after sustained high speed riding which is almost never an issue with off road use but can be a problem for highway use.

[nick5446]

Either go for the DS or wait for a brushless X/MX

[gadget123]

thanks for the opinions!

i wonder if anyone knows if the 2012 x and mx have new motors this year vs the 2011's? and does anyone have any idea how much the battery weighs? i want to get an extra one and was wondering if i could carry it on the bike sometimes on long rides.

i went into the dealer today to look at the ds. after talking to one of the sales guys i am now leaning towards just going with the x. i really want to ride trails and eventually hit small jumps. plus, that youtube video of the zero x going through water really impressed me. i just hope that i don't have to do any maintenance on it for a couple of years...i hope that is reasonable to expect. i plan to ride this bike over a hundred miles a week nearly every week on just commutes to work (on streets only...and through la jolla so i don't expect to ever really have to go faster than about 40).

i guess the reason they didn't put the brushless motor on the mx/x is because of the air scoop/cooling fan (or...whatever that large contraption is on the bottom of the bike) would make it impossible to ride on a track (though they do have it on the xu). i am pretty sure that they're gonna swap the motor next year for the mx/x...maybe if they stick with the same frame again next year then they'll have an upgrade kit.

zap mc -- i like the look of the BRD bike. but i am nervous about the company. they seem kind of small. at least zero has more cash so i feel better knowing they'll be more likely to be around for at least 2 years to honor the warranty. also, the BRD bike is full-sized. i like that.

[protomech]

The 2012 X and MX use the same axial flux motor, possibly the same as the 2011 MX. The 2011 X uses a lower power radial flux motor.

I can't find an official weight claim, but the 2012 ZF3 battery pack should weigh around 45-50 lbs.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-x/features.php

Fueled by a Z-Force™ lithium ion power pack and now featuring the same performance motor as the Zero MX, the Zero X delivers incredible torque from zero RPM. This is made possible by the powertrain’s ability to efficiently dump an incredibly high amount of power as soon as you twist the throttle.

    33% more overall power with a top speed of 56mph
    Increased torque and broader power band for much stronger acceleration
    Sustains higher power output for longer durations
    New motor integrated Z-Force Air Induction System:
        Allows for increased motor performance during aggressive riding
        Enables more energy output for longer durations
    Powerful, low weight and compact motor
    Performance settings for more and less aggressive riding (Level I and II)

[zap mc]

for radial flux and axial flux could we take that to mean Mars motor and Perm/Agni motors?

[protomech]

I believe that's correct. From a preview of the 2011 Zero lineup:

[The MX] shares the battery with the X/XU, but instead of the X’s Mars motor, it gets the Agni motor from the heavier, more powerful S/DS bikes.

[gadget123]

do you think that the employees of zero don't answer questions on this forum because they feel that they would be inundated with questions once they answered one? or do you think that it's their company policy not to answer because you never really know what an employee is going to say?

just wondering...cuz i see only a handful of posts on this forum every day (since i first knew about this forum...5 days ago).

is the electric motorbike market kinda small?

either way...thanks for all the info! i hope i made a good decision buying this bike.

and regarding the weight of the battery: wow...45-50 lbs!!??? that seems so heavy for such a small battery. i don't think i can lug that around with me. maybe if i had a long road commute then i could strap it on the bike but i really doubt i'll do that. i wonder if i'll need two batteries when i do trail riding or will one be enough?

[Richard230]

I don't know about other companies, but BMW seems to have a strict policy that no employee of the company, the distributor, or a dealer post anything on an internet forum.  I find it interesting that I usually find out about new BMW motorcycles and their price and specifications before my dealer does.

As far as electric motorcycle owners being few and far between, I wouldn't be at all surprised.  But I sure would like to know how many Brammos, Zeros and EMS/Native GPR-S have been sold over the past 4 years - and how many are still running.   

Anyone have any idea?  I sure don't.

[gadget123]

well, anyhow, i think i went off-topic. i apologize.

opinions wanted on whether i should just stick with the 2012 zero x as a daily commuter/weekend trail bike. or should i wait until brammo or another manufacturer (like BRD) comes out with their brushless motor bikes? i really do like the look and specs of the BRD but as i wrote earlier: i am nervous about the company not honoring the warranty because they are no longer in business. and i don't think i want to worry about an untested "gearbox" like the brammo is using on their dirtbike.

the x cost me $12,800 after tax and dealer fees. my dealer can't even tell me if i qualify for the tax credits (they also can't really tell me much of anything about the bike...which is way disappointing...). i kinda don't think the zero x has the "mileage" to qualify for a rebate from california or the federal gov't. does anyone know about this? if so then i gotta buy another battery to qualify. this will put me at over $15k. that's the same price as the BRD bike which has better specs.

i guess, basically, i don't want to buy something now and realize that if i had just waited a few months i could have gotten something much better.

[Richard230]

My understanding is that only the Zero S and DS qualify for the California rebate.  I think the rebate is geared toward rewarding street riding/driving and not off-road "recreation" riding.

As to your other questions, I don't think there is enough information out there regarding the future Brammo products.  When they come out, my guess is that they will be superior in performance to the current Zero models, but Brammo has not announced the final specifications for the models, nor when they will be available for purchase. 

In my case, I figured that a bird in the hand was worth two in the bush and bought the Zero.  I just didn't want to wait. 

I think if you can wait for a new EV of any type, you will always get a better product, due to the rapidly advancing technology.  But if you keep waiting for the next greatest thing to come along, you might never end up buying anything.  Eventually, you have pull the trigger and only you can make that decision.

One other comment that might interest you:  I just mailed in my CA rebate application and noticed in the application that you are signing a contract verifying that you agree not to sell your EV for a period of 3 years.  If you do, you may have to return the rebate.  The rebaters will be watching your DMV vehicle ownership records each year to make sure that you still own the bike/car.  Something more to think about.

As I was typing this, the news on my radio was reporting that gas prices could reach $5 a gallon this summer in the SF Bay Area.

[zap mc]

how will you feel if you buy a zero x brushed model and they release a brushless model next year? Which i think is highly likely, why would they not? it will give them something to fight back against Brammo with.
I find $12 800 an eye watering amount to pay for a zero X! they used to be about $9500, and second hand demo models can be bought for about $5 500 and you would still have a year on it but the obligation would be on you to get the bike or faulty parts to them if anything went wrong.

you really MUST get the dealer to loan you a bike to try it out, if they cant then there is something wrong.
"zap mc -- i like the look of the BRD bike. but i am nervous about the company. they seem kind of small. at least zero has more cash so i feel better knowing they'll be more likely to be around for at least 2 years to honor the warranty. also, the BRD bike is full-sized. i like that."

likewise the BRD will be about $15 000 i think but you will get a bespoke built bike for that but it will be a first generation machine so expect some teething issues. The company looks more user friendly and Zero has now become more corporate and has to answer to investors so lack flexibility on a small level. The BRD looks like it has been in gestation for a while now and they have managed to survive with no sales whatsoever. I find the zero x now crude and slightly dated in comparison as its a 2007 design mostly and after a while the suspension really limits the bike as you get more adventurous, and you end up wishing it was slimmer, it will never hang with a full size bike whereas the BRD looks like it might which will take the scene to a whole new level.

Did you look at the KTM? That will be well engineered and the suspension will be good.

I would not bank on Zero being here in 2 years time, even though they have taken $23M in funding this was years ago now, and their weekly wage bill is massive ( 80+ people?) plus the R&D bill and the inventory carried to make the bikes, and sales volumes have not come anywhere near making the company even remotely profitable. 200 bikes sold at $10000 is still only  $2M. I personally think they are releasing bikes now so they have some money in the bank to continue and enable them to leapfrog Brammo to the pent up demand, Good strategy.

[dkw12002]

If they change the motor, you will pay for it. Prices do not seem to be going down on new models. LOL