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[Richard230]

Blake, consider a Ninja 250. A new one is about $5,000 out the door, gets 55 mpg or so and has a top speed of 95 mph with a bullet proof, tried-and-true engine.

But when it comes time to perform a major service on the little Ninja, including adjusting its valve lash, you will thank your lucky stars that you chose an electric motorcycle.   

[ZeroSinMA]

Blake, consider a Ninja 250. A new one is about $5,000 out the door, gets 55 mpg or so and has a top speed of 95 mph with a bullet proof, tried-and-true engine.

But when it comes time to perform a major service on the little Ninja, including adjusting its valve lash, you will thank your lucky stars that you chose an electric motorcycle.   

The Zero ZF9 costs $8000 more than the Ninja. The Average annual maintenance cost thread on the kawasakimotorcycle.org forum says:

Assuming 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year, figure (doing the work myself) my 1600 Classic costs me:
Tires: $200 and $400 alternate every-other year (front tire lasts through 2 rear)
Oil: 4 changes at $55 each for full synthetic. 6 changes at $30 each for conventional
Annual relamp: (I don't wait until they burn out, but sometimes they do anyways) about $40
Brake pads: About $100 every 2 years... maybe a touch more often.
Fork oil: About $10 every 2 years
Brake/clutch fluid: About $15 every 2 years
Coolant: About $20 every 2 years
Battery: Figure $100 every 2-3 years.
Fuel: About $1,000/year

And a tub of waterproof grease... it'll last you 10 years or more.

Some things are mileage or riding habit related, such as tires, oil change frequency, brake pads, and fuel, while other things are simply time related and should be done every year or two anyways.

Pretty much anything other than the above is simply adjustments and labor related... only needing parts when something breaks or wears.
Now, if you're having the work done, add $65 to $85/hour for labor... and pray it's done right.

Throw in the occasional valve adjustment and it all adds up to approx. $1500/yr in maintenance and fuel costs that you don't have with a Zero.  You break even on the Zero after 5 years or so, and after that it's gravy.

[Richard230]

Except in California, shop labor rates are $100 an hour and they even tack on all sorts of "environmental waste" costs.   

My daughter has a 2003 Ninja 250 that I maintain. That thing is a real pain in the butt to service and it takes a full day to perform a 6K servicing.   

[dkw12002]

I own both a 2011 S Zero and a 2012 Ninja 250, so it will be interesting to compare. I don't keep bikes long enough to need valve adjustments though and don't really keep track of costs, so I still won't know probably. Something tells me they are both going to be expensive. LOL.

[CliC]

Instead of waiting for the decisions to go up to the top and come back again, I just quietly started charging it.  My tactic of "ask for forgiveness, not for permission," has worked so far.

Same here. I use an almost-always-unused outlet, and park the bike and route the cord so that it is not a trip hazard.

[ZeroSinMA]

Instead of waiting for the decisions to go up to the top and come back again, I just quietly started charging it.  My tactic of "ask for forgiveness, not for permission," has worked so far.

Same here. I use an almost-always-unused outlet, and park the bike and route the cord so that it is not a trip hazard.

If you're creative enough to buy a 100% electric bike you got to be creative enough to keep it juiced up.

Ride into parking garage, find an outlet, park as close to the outlet as possible, avoid blocking doors, fire lanes, etc., and plug in.

Or...

If the lot attendant comments, offer to pay "management" $5 "for the juice." The $5 never makes it to management, naturally. That worked for me twice in a pinch.

Or...

Cut a deal with management directly. Offer 2x the real $.50 cost or $1. I got that deal at 3 garages around town.

[dkw12002]

I think the problem with the 5 year break-even time though is that you will likely need a new battery at that point...$7,000 or so? Also as difficult as it is to adjust valves, it can be done with common tools and time. If my Zero motor or controller goes out, I would not be able to work on that at this point anyway. Perhaps if I have a step by step service manual I could, but not now. I have a feeling the bike would need to go back to California and that expense would be pretty large. Time will tell though. Anyway, I rode a Ninja 650 today, and it is looking like that Ninja 250 won't be around by 7500 miles when the valves are due for an adjustment. Of course neither will my Zero in 5 years. Next Jan. when the 2013 Zeros come out, I will think about trading my 2011 in on a new one or perhaps a left-over 2012 demo if my dealer still has one.

[ZeroSinMA]

I think the problem with the 5 year break-even time though is that you will likely need a new battery at that point...$7,000 or so? Also as difficult as it is to adjust valves, it can be done with common tools and time. If my Zero motor or controller goes out, I would not be able to work on that at this point anyway. Perhaps if I have a step by step service manual I could, but not now. I have a feeling the bike would need to go back to California and that expense would be pretty large. Time will tell though. Anyway, I rode a Ninja 650 today, and it is looking like that Ninja 250 won't be around by 7500 miles when the valves are due for an adjustment. Of course neither will my Zero in 5 years. Next Jan. when the 2013 Zeros come out, I will think about trading my 2011 in on a new one or perhaps a left-over 2012 demo if my dealer still has one.

The 2012 Zero specs are: "Cells last 3,000 full charge-discharge cycles before hitting 80% capacity, yielding as much as 308,000 miles on the original power pack."

At 10,000 mi/yr that's 30 years. Even if it's 1/2 that in the real world, in 2042 you won't be riding around on a 2012 Zero.

I too plan to wait until they figure out how to lower costs. At 100 mi per charge the Zero is finally practical, but at $14,000 it's a rich man's toy and statement, not a substitute for a IC commuter bike.

[dkw12002]

Isn't there some question about the longevity of the Li battery though? The batteries age whether you use them or not, but nobody seems to know at what degree that will happen with the Zero.  What if they only last 6 years even if you don't use them? The 300,000 miles might apply if you put 50,000 mi. a year on the bike for example, and even that is an estimate, but the aging of the battery might be the limiting factor as opposed to the number of charges or miles. That's my concern anyway.

[zap mc]

The 2012 Zero specs are: "Cells last 3,000 full charge-discharge cycles before hitting 80% capacity, yielding as much as 308,000 miles on the original power pack."



[/quote]

They said that the original cells in Zero bikes would do 1000 full cycles but they all died after a short period, how can you trust these figures when their last claims were bunkam?

[ZeroSinMA]

The 2012 Zero specs are: "Cells last 3,000 full charge-discharge cycles before hitting 80% capacity, yielding as much as 308,000 miles on the original power pack."

They said that the original cells in Zero bikes would do 1000 full cycles but they all died after a short period, how can you trust these figures when their last claims were bunkam?
[/quote]

Because they learned from experience?

[Lipo423]

There are different chemistries, packs, ways of wiring/charging/discharging the packs that could change the total number of cycles a lot, from 500 to 2-3.000
Zero's batteries -actually, they do not make the cells- (as any other ones) are also affected by age, in the case of our bikes -except some rare cases of very intensive use- time/age will affect battery life expectancy before total charging cycles.

There are a few words about this subject in page number 5-6 of this thread...

[protomech]

They said that the original cells in Zero bikes would do 1000 full cycles but they all died after a short period, how can you trust these figures when their last claims were bunkam?

1000 full cycles in the lab (typically at 0.25 - 1.0C discharge, 25C temps) over a short period of time is a much different scenario than intermittent charging at higher discharge rates in variable temperatures spread over the period of 2-3 years.

I believe Zero used Molicel NMC 26650s for the pre-2012 bikes - they show 81% capacity @ 1C discharge, 74% capacity @ 5C discharge after 300 cycles, 21 degrees C. Real world conditions and calendar aging will take a heavier toll.
http://www.molicel.com/ca/pdf/IMR26700.pdf

Here's the EIG C020 pouches I think Zero is using in the 2012 bikes. Very little capacity loss (95% remaining) after 1000 cycles @ 1C discharge, 1C charge.
http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg

Again, real world conditions and calendar aging will take their toll. But hopefully it is a less steep toll.

[dkw12002]

The large print giveth and the small print taketh away. I really cannot complain though. My 2011 performs as advertised. I took it on the interstate a couple of exits today (3 miles or so) and it went right up to an indicated 71 mph. I stay in the right hand lane but I would do that anyway even in a car for 1 exit. The high speed fan is really not an issue with noise because I can't hear it with my helmet, plus the air, tire and road noise is louder. The only time I can hear it is when I stop and take my helmet off. If the new motor needs cooling off for better speed, they might add a fan rather than a radiator which would add lots of weight. I'm sure they are looking into all the possibilities. Bigger and heavier is not the way I would like to see them go. I want lighter and faster, esp faster acceleration. 0-60mph in 3 sec. would make me happy and make me want to buy a new bike.

[protomech]

I started a new runkeeper account to capture GPS logs for test rides. Also so that my main RK account isn't getting credit for riding at 50 mph : )

I went on a ride this last weekend to test state highway speed riding - my eventual goal is to make the trip from my house to mom's house 80 miles away. The direct route is a state highway that is typically 55-65 mph, which means it's not realistic for the Zero to make the trip on a single charge.

43.0 miles as indicated by the GPS, about 45.0 miles indicated on the instrument cluster. The Zero's speedometer is reading about 4% high for me. I rode out until the 5th energy bar disappeared, then turned around to ride back. I used about 3.7 bars on the return trip, which seems oddly non-linear.. I did go up a 700 foot mountain on the trip out and down the mountain on the trip back, so that may account for a portion of the energy difference.

Suspect the saddlebags I installed were either creating additional drag or intermittently touching the tire - the last few days I've been riding without the saddlebags and seem to be doing about 10% better.

The speed logs and elevation logs might be interesting to someone.

http://runkeeper.com/user/protomoto/activity/81568069