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Author Topic: Might be a good resource  (Read 1431 times)

Pard

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Might be a good resource
« on: March 07, 2025, 05:54:07 AM »

There are folks who build their own electric bikes.

I wonder if this may be the solution moving forward.  Swap out proprietary Energica electronics for aftermarket battery management systems and speed controllers, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/electricmotorcyclebuilds

https://www.sparkcycleworks.com/
« Last Edit: March 07, 2025, 06:25:21 AM by Pard »
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Grauteufel

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Re: Might be a good resource
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2025, 08:09:19 AM »

The trouble is there is more than just a battery and motor controller, you have the abs, tractions control, IMU, Canbus etc all tied together. Scarily as energica boasted "There's more than 1.1 million lines of code in the control software". Essentially you'd have to re-work/re-build everything from scratch as if you had a rolling chassis, battery and power unit.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2025, 08:10:57 AM by Grauteufel »
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Specter

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Re: Might be a good resource
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2025, 09:12:32 AM »

That's the problem that nobody ever thinks about.
They turn the throttle and it runs, they are blissfully happy, and totally clueless as to HOW it is so simple for them!
The power industry is the same way.  Morons go home and flip the switch, the lights come on, they smile and grab a pbr, have no clue how the magic happens, yet the moment something disrupts it, immediately start screaming.

controlling the speed, the torque, the accelleration, your ABS and other safety features.  The braking, all of that takes precision.  In order to get that precision, you need inputs, and a way to read and interpret those inputs, then a way to put that data to good use.

Well, Ill just take a motor and a rheostat and put a battery on it, it'll work fine.
good luck with that.

Also as a sidenote, I am very involved in a lot of this, I follow it very closely as I find it totally awesome what they are doing.  We have a local team that is doing this very type of thing!   They work with a robotics team in the area as well.  I've helped them build projects in the past....anyways.   Many of them are going the low voltage route, they are using your cots 48 volt systems, and MASSIVE amps to push the things!  This means you need more control parts, as in duplicity to handle those amps and heavier wire to carry those amps, ie more weight.  A typical controller can handle ehh 400 amps, unless you want to really start getting expensive.  But of course you can just slap 2 of them together for double the power!!  oh but wait, you need to synch them, ehh just another gadget, you can hide it under the back seat.

In a car the weight is not AS much a problem plus you have a lot more room to hide shit at.  On a bike now, weight is critical and there is NOT a whole lot of room to hide stuff!!  More power? better go higher voltage.. but that presents it's own set of problems, and complexities.

How much of that code is just for compliance bullshit?   How much of that code is to protect retards from themselves?  It could be easier, but then would it still be legal?  Ahh....

aaron
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Pard

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Re: Might be a good resource
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2025, 09:55:03 PM »

Interesting...



Hacking EVs and transplanting electronics has precedent. 

"Damien McGuire's circuit board, often referred to as the "Open Inverter" board, is a custom-designed logic board that can be purchased and installed into a Toyota Prius inverter, allowing you to repurpose the inverter for use in DIY electric vehicle projects by giving you independent control over the motor power without relying on the Prius's original ECU system; essentially, it lets you "hack" the Prius inverter to power a different motor in a custom build. "

There has to be a way to keep the energica going on other components.


« Last Edit: March 07, 2025, 09:59:50 PM by Pard »
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Specter

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Re: Might be a good resource
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2025, 09:12:33 PM »

There are.  But of course it won't be energica anymore.
It's a bit more complicated than just motor git up and go power though.  You need other safety things, issues to contend with to keep it DOT legal.  ABS, Traction Control are two possible examples, then the whole regen thing needs to be worked out so it don't fight with the previous two.  THIS is where the expertise and finesse comes in, in the software (that you can't get to).

Energica has it's parts married to each other, you are going to need to do a bit more than, bypass the authentication protocol and flip the 'turn on' switch.  This is NOT going to be easy with Energica though, it isn't just hacking a copy of Doom so you don't have to pay the cost of the CD here.

There are a plethora of other reasons why it won't be so simple which I will not get into here.  Any decent engineer knows why, given the age of the products.

God forbid the company goes tits up, and somehow the code and all of that goes public domain, you STILL are going to need tribal knowledge to get everything to play nice, and that goes with pretty much EVERY sophisticated product out there today.

Aaron
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Pard

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Re: Might be a good resource
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2025, 07:26:59 PM »

There are.  But of course it won't be energica anymore.
It's a bit more complicated than just motor git up and go power though.  You need other safety things, issues to contend with to keep it DOT legal.  ABS, Traction Control are two possible examples, then the whole regen thing needs to be worked out so it don't fight with the previous two.  THIS is where the expertise and finesse comes in, in the software (that you can't get to).

Energica has it's parts married to each other, you are going to need to do a bit more than, bypass the authentication protocol and flip the 'turn on' switch.  This is NOT going to be easy with Energica though, it isn't just hacking a copy of Doom so you don't have to pay the cost of the CD here.

There are a plethora of other reasons why it won't be so simple which I will not get into here.  Any decent engineer knows why, given the age of the products.

God forbid the company goes tits up, and somehow the code and all of that goes public domain, you STILL are going to need tribal knowledge to get everything to play nice, and that goes with pretty much EVERY sophisticated product out there today.

Aaron

Understood, I think.

Will not be an Energica anymore, absolutely, but with a whole new set of guts to allow battery power to get to the motor with throttle control will work for me rather than sending the bike to the junkyard.

A new dc/dc converter to power a new dash and lights to keep it road legal in the usa, or an external batttery for that role would be fine.

Not expecting to save any ride modes, or traction control, etc.

Will be a primitive yet powerful homebuilt electric bike.

Better than kissing it goodbye.

In any case, that is my plan for now and I am reaching out to electric bike homebuilders to find out what they use.

A new set of components for battery charging and balancing will be needed as well.

Better than nothing for if and when the time comes if it can be done.  Just starting to get educated about the possibilities.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2025, 07:28:41 PM by Pard »
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Specter

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Re: Might be a good resource
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2025, 08:27:26 PM »

pard, another thing you need to consider, most of these home builders are running their ideas off the 48volt bus,  NOT 300 volts, so it would not work in our situation.  even the ones going higher voltages are running maybe 96 volt, which still, ours at 300, it won't work for us.  Well.... i don't want to say it won't work for us, it will-it can but will take a lot more tinkering and engineering to do so, you can't just take their idea and overlay it on the energica and it'll work.  I get you, god forbid something pops or you ding it into something, would hate to throw it away but there are uses for it.  the battery is great for a storage batter for solar, as an example

aaron
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Pard

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Re: Might be a good resource
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2025, 09:55:13 PM »

pard, another thing you need to consider, most of these home builders are running their ideas off the 48volt bus,  NOT 300 volts, so it would not work in our situation.  even the ones going higher voltages are running maybe 96 volt, which still, ours at 300, it won't work for us.  Well.... i don't want to say it won't work for us, it will-it can but will take a lot more tinkering and engineering to do so, you can't just take their idea and overlay it on the energica and it'll work.  I get you, god forbid something pops or you ding it into something, would hate to throw it away but there are uses for it.  the battery is great for a storage batter for solar, as an example

aaron

True.  Much more research required.

BTW, if you have not tried out Grok AI yet, give it a go.

I typed in 300V speed controller for EV and it gave me this:

"Since you're specifically asking about sourcing a 300V speed controller for an electric vehicle (EV), I’ll focus on practical options and guidance for finding one as of March 9, 2025. A 300V speed controller is a high-voltage component typically used in mid-sized EVs like cars, motorcycles, or custom conversions, so sourcing one involves balancing performance needs, availability, and budget. Below, I’ll outline where and how you can source such a controller, based on my knowledge of the EV ecosystem and typical supply channels.

Key Considerations for Sourcing
Before diving into options, clarify your requirements:

Current Rating: How much power do you need? A 300V controller might range from 100A to 500A (30 kW to 150 kW), depending on your motor and vehicle.

Motor Type: Ensure compatibility (e.g., BLDC, PMSM, or AC induction).

Features: Do you need regenerative braking, CAN communication, or programmability?

New vs. Used: Are you open to salvaged parts (e.g., from scrapped EVs) or only new units?

Budget: Prices can range from $500 for basic units to $3000+ for advanced, OEM-grade controllers.

Sourcing Options
1. Commercial EV Component Suppliers
These companies specialize in EV parts and often stock or can custom-order 300V controllers:
EV West (evwest.com): Known for conversion kits, they carry controllers like the Curtis 1238 series or Hyper9 systems. A 300V-capable Curtis controller (e.g., 1238E-7621, 96V–650V, 550A peak) might work, though you’d need to confirm voltage compatibility. Contact their sales team for exact matches.

Kelly Controls (kellycontroller.com): Offers high-voltage DC and BLDC controllers, such as the KHB series (up to 325V, 200A–600A). Prices range from $600–$1500. Check their catalog or email for a 300V-specific model.

Electric Motorsport (electricmotorsport.com): Supplies drive kits with controllers (e.g., ME1910 kit). Their offerings lean toward lower voltages, but they may source 300V units on request.

Cascadia Motion (cascadiamotion.com): Provides industrial-grade controllers (e.g., Rinehart PM series) up to 400V+. These are premium (>$2000) but robust for serious EV builds.

Action: Visit their websites, filter for 300V controllers, or contact them directly with your specs (voltage, current, motor type).
2. Online Marketplaces
For broader selection or deals:
Alibaba (alibaba.com): Search “300V EV motor controller” or “300V BLDC controller.” Suppliers like Shenzhen manufacturers offer units (e.g., 300V, 200A for ~$500–$1000), often customizable. Minimum order quantities (MOQs) may apply, but single units are negotiable. Verify supplier ratings and request specs sheets.

Amazon: Limited for high-voltage EV parts, but search “high voltage motor controller” for smaller-scale options. You might find RC-grade 300A ESCs (e.g., for boats), though they’re rarely EV-suited.

eBay: Great for used or surplus controllers. Search “300V motor controller” or “EV controller.” You might snag a salvaged unit from a Tesla, Leaf, or DIY build for $300–$800. Check condition and compatibility.

Action: Use specific keywords, compare listings, and message sellers for voltage/current confirmation.
3. Salvage and OEM Parts
Repurposing controllers from existing EVs can save money:
Tesla Components: Tesla Model S/X battery modules often pair with 300V–400V inverters. Salvaged inverters (e.g., via eBay or EV salvage yards) might cost $500–$1000 but require hacking or a compatible VCU (e.g., AEM VCU300).

Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt: Older EV parts (250V–350V range) are widely available through dismantlers. Check sites like car-part.com or local junkyards.

OEM Suppliers: Companies like Dana TM4 or Bosch sell 300V+ controllers to manufacturers, but retail access is limited. You’d need a distributor or industry contact.

Action: Search salvage networks or forums like diynissanleaf.com for leads. Test units before use.
4. DIY and Open-Source Communities
For custom builds:
OpenInverter (openinverter.org): An open-source project for building or adapting inverters. Pair it with a salvaged Toyota Prius inverter (300V–400V capable) and customize firmware. Total cost: ~$500–$800 (parts + time).

Endless Sphere Forums (endless-sphere.com): EV enthusiasts often sell or recommend high-voltage controllers. Post your specs in the marketplace section.

X Search: I can search X posts for real-time leads if you’d like—e.g., “selling 300V EV controller.” Let me know!

Action: Join forums, download OpenInverter files, or ask for recommendations.
5. Specialty Manufacturers
For high-end or niche needs:
AEM EV (aemev.com): Their VCU300 (up to 400V, multi-motor support) is ~$2500 but offers pro-grade features like torque management.

Sevcon (BorgWarner): Gen5 controllers handle 300V+ systems (200A–500A), though they’re OEM-focused. Contact distributors like thunderstruck-ev.com.

VEICHI (veichi.com): Offers EV-specific controllers (e.g., EV series, 200V–400V) for motorcycles or small vehicles. Request a quote online.

Action: Email or call for pricing and availability; expect higher costs ($1500–$3000).
Recommendations
Quickest Option: Kelly Controls KHB series—affordable, available, and configurable.

Best Value: eBay/Alibaba for used or bulk units—riskier but cheaper.

High Performance: AEM VCU300 or Cascadia Motion—top-tier but pricey.

DIY Route: OpenInverter with a Prius inverter—flexible and community-supported.

Next Steps
Tell me more about your project (motor type, power needs, budget) or if you want me to:
Search X or the web for specific listings as of today, March 9, 2025.

Analyze a controller from a link/post you provide.

Refine this list further!

What’s your priority—cost, speed of delivery, or performance?

regenerative braking details

battery management systems"

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Richard230

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Re: Might be a good resource
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2025, 03:27:43 AM »

 Electric Motorsport is still around? I am impressed. I bought my first two DOT-approved electric motorcycles from them in 2009 and then in 2010. I wasn't all that happy with their operation - or their motorcycles, for that matter. I guess they ditched the bikes and went back to selling electric vehicle parts and that has kept them in business for the past 15 years.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

T.S. Zarathustra

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Re: Might be a good resource
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2025, 05:08:51 PM »

There are a lot of things to keep in mind. There are some parameters brought on by the original design that limit options. But you can look at it as if you are converting ICE bike to electric. And 90% of the work has already been done.
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Pard

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Re: Might be a good resource
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2025, 05:40:16 PM »

There are a lot of things to keep in mind. There are some parameters brought on by the original design that limit options. But you can look at it as if you are converting ICE bike to electric. And 90% of the work has already been done.

Excellent way to frame it!
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