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[Curt]

My 2016 FX dual modular batteries are nearing end of life going on 9 years and 14,000 miles. Worsening symptoms of "magic charging" started in earnest last year. I think it's due to weakness and voltage droop under load. I theorize this may be the fate of all lithium EVs after about 10 years.

I start out at 100% charge but after 6 miles at 30-50 MPH it's below 50%. After parking a few hours it's back to 80%. After another 6 miles it's under 20% and power limiting. Then it recovers back to 50%.

In the next post I'll try to explain my options.

[Curt]

Option 1: Get a new 2025 non-modular FX that will cost at least $14,000, plus I will have to move/replace my top case, hand guards and heated grips, plus insurance and registration will be higher, plus have to sell/scrap the old bike.

Option 2: Get a new 2023 non-modular FX from an out-of-state dealer. It will cost about $10,000. While the battery was probably maintained OK, there's no way to know, but it'll save $4000 and have the 5 year warranty. It still has the problem of accessories, re-insuring, etc. It's got the IPM motor and color LCD dash. I need to scrap/sell the old bike.

Option 3: Get two new ZF3.6 modular batteries for $3000 each. Zero informs me they make them in batches so they shouldn't be more than a few months old. The warranty will be only 1 year. They drop into my bike without needing firmware update and changes it from a 6.5 to a 7.2. I keep the old chassis and do some work on it (bearings, brakes, belt). Estimated cost between $7,500 and $8,000.

The first option sounds too expensive. The third option would be lazy and risks other failures. Maybe the second option is the best? I'd appreciate any thoughts y'all might have.

[TheRan]

What problems do you anticipate to come up with option 3? You shouldn't have to replace bearings at just 14k miles and I think the belt should also be fine for a few thousand more. Brake pads and fluid are cheap, the belt isn't that much even if you did want to replace it for peace of mind. I'm not seeing where you're getting an extra $1.5-2k.

If you did want some of the stuff that comes with a new model like the better motor and the colour dash (it doesn't show any additional info btw, and it's harder to see in bright light) then you could get a newer used model for under $10k.

[T.S. Zarathustra]

Option 4 might be Farasis. They list (what looks like the Zero) pack with assembled cells (no control circuits) in one of their brochures. For various electric vehicles. I was planning to contact them when my bikes battery starts to fail. From some comments on the web it seems they only sell to businesses, and like large orders, but you never know unless you try.

Option 5. Most likely for me. Move on. Find another bike that you like, any bike, and scrap your old bike.

Mine is seven year old SR 14.4. Like you I was thinking about what to do when the battery pack starts to drop. One option is replacing the battery (or the four bricks inside), bearings, tires, belt, powdercoating wheels, checking frame, checking wires and connectors, overhaul motor and maybe an upgraded charger. It would be like a new bike. But at a cost.

Option 99. A proper tinkerer might try to replace few of the weakest cells in the battery and use the bike for couple of more years. I used to rematch cells for RC applications and know it's possible, but I cannot master the energy to even look at the 100+ cells in my battery pack. That's not even the biggest issue. The biggest issue would be sourcing replacement cells (although Ali does list some options). 
Option 99b. Build a new pack from new cells (maybe the ubiquitous 18650, or pouch cells that are available in various dimensions), using the Zero control boards. This was done few times with the Zero Gen1.

[Curt]

What problems do you anticipate to come up with option 3? You shouldn't have to replace bearings at just 14k miles and I think the belt should also be fine for a few thousand more. Brake pads and fluid are cheap, the belt isn't that much even if you did want to replace it for peace of mind. I'm not seeing where you're getting an extra $1.5-2k.

If you did want some of the stuff that comes with a new model like the better motor and the colour dash (it doesn't show any additional info btw, and it's harder to see in bright light) then you could get a newer used model for under $10k.

For option 3, getting new batteries, the biggest risk is not having much of a battery warranty despite spending that much. But the charger, motor, controller, MBB, etc. are also passing 9 years old. I figure $6000 for the batteries, $500 tax on them, and $500 dealer charge (it might be possible to order directly from Zero, but a dealer needs to input the warranty info and recycle the old battery). I rode it a lot in the rain, and if it's like my last Honda and Yamaha, the bearings will need attention, especially the wheels but also the steering and suspension. What about the motor bearings? My tires are squaring off. At least I do have a new belt already and I can refresh the brakes. Good points about the dash. Thank you!

[Curt]

Option 4 might be Farasis. They list (what looks like the Zero) pack with assembled cells (no control circuits) in one of their brochures. For various electric vehicles. I was planning to contact them when my bikes battery starts to fail. From some comments on the web it seems they only sell to businesses, and like large orders, but you never know unless you try.

Option 5. Most likely for me. Move on. Find another bike that you like, any bike, and scrap your old bike.

Mine is seven year old SR 14.4. Like you I was thinking about what to do when the battery pack starts to drop. One option is replacing the battery (or the four bricks inside), bearings, tires, belt, powdercoating wheels, checking frame, checking wires and connectors, overhaul motor and maybe an upgraded charger. It would be like a new bike. But at a cost.

Option 99. A proper tinkerer might try to replace few of the weakest cells in the battery and use the bike for couple of more years. I used to rematch cells for RC applications and know it's possible, but I cannot master the energy to even look at the 100+ cells in my battery pack. That's not even the biggest issue. The biggest issue would be sourcing replacement cells (although Ali does list some options). 
Option 99b. Build a new pack from new cells (maybe the ubiquitous 18650, or pouch cells that are available in various dimensions), using the Zero control boards. This was done few times with the Zero Gen1.

I'm pretty sure Zero still assembles all their own batteries, and they are epoxy potted and nearly impossible to work on. While options 99A and 99B sound like fun, I'd rather be riding.

As to replacing the bike with something different, I just love the FX form factor, driving and parking it in narrow places. It's a great utility vehicle with the top case. I do tend to abuse it by riding above 50 mph half the time, which requires more charge cycles. To me it seems like the only realistic option in its class, a very light ninja bike with all the versatility. Thank you!

[T.S. Zarathustra]

There are levels of assembly. After too much time spent on the interwebs it seems to me that Zero received assembled (epoxy potted S28P1) batteries from Farasis. Zero put one, two, three or four of these in a metal box, put on a BMS, called it a brick and installed in their bikes. As far as I can tell Zero did not receive loose cells. In the Farasis catalog there is similar pack as Zero uses, available in S28P1 and S14P2 configuration. So it seems to make sense, if trying to fix the battery, to try to get some of those packs from Farasis. Maybe try to find out if they are used somewhere else and get them from there. More investigation required.

Trying to fix individual cells within the battery might not be that difficult. If one cell has expanded it's usually loose and easy to remove. And potted Epoxy becomes soft-ish at relatively low temperatures. But there was a reason I numbered it as option 99A and 99B. Lot's of other things to try before that.    Incidentally it seems that Chevrolet Bolt cells are a nice candidate for DIY batterypacks. Reliable chemistry, compatible with Zero BMS, watercooled so unlikely to have overheated, easily disassembled without special tools. Unfortunately dimensions are a bit off, but with some ingenuity it would work. Alas, you're not out riding your Zero if the battery is dead. 

"Find another bike that you like, any bike" certainly doesn't exclude getting another FX.

[Specter]

Just remember that any time you put a new battery in a pack full of older batteries, that in itself can cause additional issues.
The newer battery stresses the older ones out and can force them to die out even faster.
the older battery can pull down the newer battery causing it to fail prematurely and wear much faster.

DYR before pulling the trigger on that route.

Aaron

[T.S. Zarathustra]

With BMS it's nearly impossible for one cell to stress damage other cells in a simple 28S1P battery. The same current flows through every single cell in series. The BMS monitors the charge of each cell separately and prevents the battery from getting into damaging cells territory.
If the new cell(s) is higher capacity than the others. Then when the BMS detects the weakest cell is nearing the limit it shuts off the battery, including the new cell.
If the new cell(s) is lower capacity than the others. Then when the BMS detects it's nearing the limit it shuts off the battery.

[Specter]

Are all the BMS built the same way?
I have seen some batteries where the bms only looks at arms or segments we could call it.  So you may have 4 or 8 cells it looks at as one entity.  no NOT the best way to do things.  Still, yes you may get your pack back working but it's going to be overall degraded because the new cell can't be used to it's max because of the older ones.  They lose capacity remember, so the entire pack may be down 15 percent.  wel 14.7 now with the new cell.

As with most cells, pushing them to their very tippy tops or bottoming out on them, shortens their life too.  So if the battery is terminating it's charge, because the cells are tippy top time and time again, it's shortening their life span.  A battery pushed to a full 100 percent duty cycle may have 1000 cycles in it.  if you were to cycle it 80 percent, say, shaving 10 percent off the top and bottom, you may get 3000 cycles out of it, if you were to drop it to 70 percent, again shaving the ends, you may get 5000 or even 10k cycles out of it.  Some of the so called 'better' batteries out there, prolong their life cycles by actually squeezing an extra cell or two in there, so the voltage is by design, cycling in that 70 to 80 percent range.  I may call it a 72 volt battery, even though by build it's really an 80 volt battery.  I just have you charge it in the 72 range which is the EQ of a 70 percent charge cycle, to prolong it's lifespan.

Aaron

[TheRan]

Yes the Zero BMS monitors each cell, and by default they don't allow the cells to utilise their entire voltage range. Sure if you were to stick brand new cell in there you're not going to get the whole pack acting like a brand new one, but it would give you the capacity it should have had considering its usage instead of a degraded one due to a faulty cell. Still, given the extent of the potting it's not even worth attempting.

[gt13013]

I am also interested in this discussion.
My 2016 FXS with 2 removable battery packs has one pack that seems to loose capacity.
I would be interested in finding a replacement pack with good warranty...

[Curt]

My 2016 FXS with 2 removable battery packs has one pack that seems to loose capacity.

You reminded me I ought to try mine with one pack at a time to see what happens.
Unfortunately I have to delay resolving this due to illness in the family.

[gt13013]

You reminded me I ought to try mine with one pack at a time to see what happens.

Yes, and I also planned to do the same. Nice days are coming. I will try to do it soon!