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[Stonewolf]

I have thought that one thing that would be interesting down the road would be a solid state cell swap. If you can get the right form factor cells you should be able to do a straight drop-in replacement and as long as the software works off voltage it the existing management systems should cope without modification.

[T.S. Zarathustra]

The good thing about Energica and Zero is that brakes, lights, suspension, wheels, and steering are all similar to ICE motorcycles and could be replaced with parts from them.
Battery and motor are complete separate units. As long as you can source or modify a similar unit and are willing to dumb down the bike a bit (and/or accept little less performance) there is little reason why a bike could not be kept running for a long time with nonstandard components.

It's the brain that all these connect to that makes it tricky. Not that it's terribly difficult to reverse engineer it, but it would be time consuming. Maybe it would be simplest to replace it with some cheap Chinese general purpose controller.

The bad thing is that a dealer will not do any mix of components. It has to be done by the owner.

Who knows what the future will bring. In 10-20 years you might bring your bricked Energica (or Zero) out of the garage and fix it with some inexpensive AI designed "Mr. Fusion" parts that make it ride longer and faster than anytime before.

[Specter]

Stonewolf, the solid state.  It's interesting right now.
One manu I have been watching, are pulling a tesla on their product's ratings and stated capabilities.
Remember how the powerwall was promised with all this grandoise and then quietly the specs dropped, reduced and went down.
Seeing same thing now with the SS supercaps.  Amp ratings are dropping, and cycle life went from an original claim of almost a million cycles, to now maybe 10k or so.  Now that these things been on the market for a while and are seeing real genuine use, and real world data is coming in on them, initial claims are quietly being re adjusted to match reality.

With that being said, I don't see any weight reduction really, in fact is heavier.  Price might come down over time, but for now is pretty high.  The only real benefit right now is no chemicals, or corrosives.  The supercaps are essentially cellophane  / saran wrap and carbon rolled into a tight tootsie roll with electrodes on it.  Besides for safety, there is no real 'gain' in capacity .vs. weight on them for the time being.  I havent heard of much in the way of capacity milestones hitting anywhere, just a bit of safety.  I don't expect to see anything breath taking coming out in the next 4 or 5 years really.  At least not at our level, and THAT is the one thing that is going to have to happen really to make Electric vehicles really hit mainstream.  If not capacity, some fast charge that can be done in like 5 or 10 minutes, but THAT is going to take multi megawatts per station if you don't want a line of cars a half mile long.... and THAT is gong to take a major infrastructure overhaul.   Were a ways out on all of this no matter how it plays out.

Aaron

[Stonewolf]

From what I've seen supercaps are a dead end for main power storage in an automotive context. Solid state is basicly ready to go and is mainly being held back by fabrication limitations, there are a few companies making actual production cells in low volumes but they're not going out to retail, they're being shipped off to various firms that have an interest so they can prepare the products into which those cells will go when mass production ramps up. My understanding is that tooling is the holdup due to the precise environmental control required in the manufacturing process. Nevertheless those cells have full spec sheets, the details are out there if you're willing to do some research or have the contacts to ask.

Solid state will get you between 70 and 100% more gravimetric capacity and about 40% more volumetric capacity. If you could find cells in the right form factor you could get about a 30kWh battery in the same box as a Ribelle with something like a 20 to 30 kg weight drop. That'd give you a range over 80% of the battery roughly equivalent to running ICE hyper nakeds down to fuel light (Tuono V4s and MT-10s are only getting 130ish miles). The caveat being that doesn't apply on the motorway but the bread and butter use case for those bikes isn't on the motorway either.

[Fran K]

From what I've seen supercaps are a dead end for main power storage in an automotive context. Solid state is basicly ready to go and is mainly being held back by fabrication limitations, there are a few companies making actual production cells in low volumes but they're not going out to retail, they're being shipped off to various firms that have an interest so they can prepare the products into which those cells will go when mass production ramps up. My understanding is that tooling is the holdup due to the precise environmental control required in the manufacturing process. Nevertheless those cells have full spec sheets, the details are out there if you're willing to do some research or have the contacts to ask.

Solid state will get you between 70 and 100% more gravimetric capacity and about 40% more volumetric capacity. If you could find cells in the right form factor you could get about a 30kWh battery in the same box as a Ribelle with something like a 20 to 30 kg weight drop. That'd give you a range over 80% of the battery roughly equivalent to running ICE hyper nakeds down to fuel light (Tuono V4s and MT-10s are only getting 130ish miles). The caveat being that doesn't apply on the motorway but the bread and butter use case for those bikes isn't on the motorway either.

I read it but solid state and semi solid state seem to be getting used interchangeably lately.  The latest cells in a Stark claim to be 242 kw/kg. A 2170 form factor. 

Molicel INR-21700-P45B

[wadejesu]

Wonder if Energica will notify current bike owners of the situation at what their plans are? Or just leave everybody hanging

[Motoproponent]

Wonder if Energica will notify current bike owners of the situation at what their plans are? Or just leave everybody hanging

The plan is to lay everyone off and sell all the things. Any "plans" for the future will be up to the new buyer or buyers.

We already have been left hanging. None of us will ever get the centerstand we bought and none of us will get the benefit of the battery warranty we paid for.

I don't need to wonder if I'm going to get an individual email from Energica.

I'm just going to ride my bike, man.

[Stonewolf]

From what I've seen supercaps are a dead end for main power storage in an automotive context. Solid state is basicly ready to go and is mainly being held back by fabrication limitations, there are a few companies making actual production cells in low volumes but they're not going out to retail, they're being shipped off to various firms that have an interest so they can prepare the products into which those cells will go when mass production ramps up. My understanding is that tooling is the holdup due to the precise environmental control required in the manufacturing process. Nevertheless those cells have full spec sheets, the details are out there if you're willing to do some research or have the contacts to ask.

Solid state will get you between 70 and 100% more gravimetric capacity and about 40% more volumetric capacity. If you could find cells in the right form factor you could get about a 30kWh battery in the same box as a Ribelle with something like a 20 to 30 kg weight drop. That'd give you a range over 80% of the battery roughly equivalent to running ICE hyper nakeds down to fuel light (Tuono V4s and MT-10s are only getting 130ish miles). The caveat being that doesn't apply on the motorway but the bread and butter use case for those bikes isn't on the motorway either.

I read it but solid state and semi solid state seem to be getting used interchangeably lately.  The latest cells in a Stark claim to be 242 kw/kg. A 2170 form factor. 

Molicel INR-21700-P45B

I'm refering only to pure solid state, semi-solid state seems to be a thing that's being used to shift consumer electronics atm.

[wadejesu]

Maybe HPtuners will include 2 wheel vehicles, same principal.

 https://www.hptuners.com/core-ev/?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CORE%20EV%20Announcement%20%28US%29%20%282024-11-05%29&_kx=OS0Pee3gqNF40WKOvmWwVYf-SjUqdIQ23srm6opfnmY.TBic7m

[HoodRichOG]

It's the brain that all these connect to that makes it tricky. Not that it's terribly difficult to reverse engineer it, but it would be time consuming. Maybe it would be simplest to replace it with some cheap Chinese general purpose controller.

I doubt it honestly. Don't the parts all communicate with each other, making them non replaceable by generic components?

Reverse engineering firmware and specialized hardware is incredibly difficult, can you clarify where you got the notion that it isn't?

[most]

To add to that, the bright Belgian coder Hans Capelle contributed a lot by trying to decipher the OBD messages and did not completely succeed. And this was only the plain and simple exercise to fully understand what Energica‘s OBD delivers.

Maybe after all re-engineering is a tiny bit more complex than cleaning & adjusting an old carburetor - and even that not everyone could do in those days…

[jotjotde]

Yeah, I would have trusted Hans Capelle to really delve deep into the bike's software guts, but unfortunately he sold his EsseEsse last year.
Re-engineering of mechanics might seem easy. Re-engineering of software is mostly not doable, you need the code. One example: How you want to find out what the necessary conditions are to get the bike going? OK, there are some switches that need to be engaged or disengaged (kickstand, seat, brake) but what other parameters are checked before the GO light appears? How anyone can say without looking into the actual code?


I am owning my Ribelle for more than 2 years now and never got any direct e-mail from Energica. TBH their direct customer communication was always shitty.

Talked to my dealer yesterday. Currently Energica is totally incommunicado. No one answers e-mails or picks up the phone. Since some weeks my dealer has a brand new bike standing there which suddenly refused to start after some kilometers of successful running and they do not know what to do. Compared to e.g. car dealerships they did not get the full diagnostics capabilities necessary to really find all errors. The buyer gave back the bike under lemon law and now my dealer has the shitty end of the stick.

[Beauceron]

My dealer has currently 3 of those; two Evo and one Experia. He is currently at the EICMA I am tensed about his report.

[T.S. Zarathustra]

It's the brain that all these connect to that makes it tricky. Not that it's terribly difficult to reverse engineer it, but it would be time consuming. Maybe it would be simplest to replace it with some cheap Chinese general purpose controller.

I doubt it honestly. Don't the parts all communicate with each other, making them non replaceable by generic components?

Reverse engineering firmware and specialized hardware is incredibly difficult, can you clarify where you got the notion that it isn't?

They do not communicate with each other. They all communicate with the controller. A small but important difference. That's why I suggested that maybe it might be simplest to replace the controller. Once you have replaced the controller you are no longer bound by limitations of the old one and can replace any of the parts with generic components.

Maybe "reverse engineering" is not the right word. You don't need to "reverse engineer" the "specialized hardware" in detail as much as figure out how it functions, with the original parts as a guide. Reverse engineering in that sense is not "incredibly difficult" but it can be time consuming. Things that take time and difficult are not the same thing. The reverse engineering in this case would be to make something that functions the same way, not to make a competing product to sell.

Reverse engineering specialized hardware is easy. Maybe you can clarify where you got the notion that it isn't?
The chips have markings on them so you can look them up in catalogs. The PCB can be x-rayed to tell you exactly what is connected to what. The firmware in the chips can be read and copied.

[Specter]

So, when something is behind an encryption you can just read it like that correct?
Without the codes to be able to get past passwords, I don't think you'll be too successful.
Just because you may be able to read software, do you know fully how it works?  What it does, what it needs to run, stuff like that.
If it was that easy to just hack into something and make one yourself, then it'd have been done many times over, over many years, with many different items.

Like hell I am going to pay apple 1200 for a shitty phone, I have a friend with a RS 232 port who says he can reverse engineer the code in it, ill make my own for a few hundred dollars !!    afterall, they are made in china so the parts are easy to get because of that now right?

Aaron