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[DonTom]

The previous-gen Energicas charged over 2C, but that was with the old split-channel case that allowed airflow during riding to quickly cool the core of the pack off. That's part of the main reasons I still have a 2018 model. When Energica effectively doubled their pack capacity they also got rid of that cooling channel which doesn't impact the vast majority of owners, but to us multiple charge back-to-back riders it was a serious factor.

The pack with the best thermal management available right now I think has to be the LiveWire One. It's got those nice RAM scoops the funnel air to the core of the pack, the large fins acting as heat sinks, and every cell in contact with part of the battery case that has airflow. I really think they could have been a LOT more aggressive with their charging algorithm. It goes up to 1.5C at the bottom 0-->40% of the charge cycle, but then tapers off to boring numbers. But you can watch the pack cool off very quickly during the followup ride. I'm curious to see if and when they give the pack a refresh; I think it's time.

Yeah, my 2020 SS9- has the better cooling system. But TBH, I never noticed any difference when riding or charging. The battery temp light is yellow just as often, lowering the charge rate just as much as does my Experia.


While that L-W has a great battery system (for a motorcycle) it is my least favorite electric motorcycle of them all. No reverse, no Level two charging, no decent luggage available, etc.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[MVetter]

I'm just talking purely from a pack's thermal-management standpoint. The LW1's pack was designed with a lot of thought, care, and planning.

[DonTom]

I'm just talking purely from a pack's thermal-management standpoint. The LW1's pack was designed with a lot of thought, care, and planning.

Agreed. But perhaps a little too much planning for reliability. IIRC, it charges rather slowly on a DCFC even at perfect temps. And is ridiculous to only have 1.4 KW (or whatever it is) for AC input charging.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[MVetter]

I agree that they were too conservative on the algorithm. Just my opinion. But the pack does do 1.5C for nearly 40% of its charge session arguably making it the highest current production model C rate on today's market.

[T.S. Zarathustra]

For 2025 I don't expect much in terms of changes. What I would expect is a "mid-range" Zero motorcycle. Basically a new Gen2. FX has too small battery to be tempting for me and Gen3 is too big and heavy. There is also a gap in price between these that I'd like to see filled.
The main problem for me with Zero is their design philosophy. Their cypher store was IMHO a big failure. If the bike is equipped with heated grips I want to be able to use them. If it is more cost effective to equip all bikes with heated grips, rather than have it as an option, it should lower the price of bikes and make them more valuable in the future without me having to pay extra in the Cypher store. Same goes for "extra capacity", "faster charge" and most of the other "options" in the Cypher store.
It seems they are no longer a manufacturer that is design driven to provide advanced technical solutions to be a leader, but beancounter driven design that looks everywhere for some pennies at cost of quality and customer satisfaction. Sadly none of the other manufacturers seems to be any better.

Zero have acknowledged the fault with pre-22 bikes 14.4 batteries. Every single one of them is a dud. Get them replaced.

Do you have link to the acknowledgement, that I can show to the dealer to get my battery replaced?
Not that I have battery issues. My 2018 SR with 25000 miles is a daily rider and has easy 100 mile range with 60% highway use. But I would not say no to free replacement battery. 

Reading the previous comments (many ride until battery is completely flat) it seems many are not aware how usage of batteries affects battery life (how long the battery will last, as opposed to how long the charge lasts). In short, a lithium-ion battery should be kept between 20% and 80% state of charge to maximize its lifespan. Previous owner of my bike gave me the attached graph, and I have tried as much as I can to keep state of charge between 20 and 80 percent. Only charge to 100% right before a ride. My bike has plenty of range from a six year old battery.
Excerpts from Zero owners manual.
"If the power pack is fully discharged, it must be charged within 24 hours to prevent damage to the power pack."
"your power pack will benefit from not being charged to 100% unnecessarily."
"CAUTION: Never store your motorcycle at a state of charge less than 30%"

Personally I'd make the BMS log all charging statuses and if (for example) charge goes below 30% show a notice on the dashboard. "Battery warranty will be void if battery is not charged to over 30% within X hours." Then I'd have a warranty status LED on the battery. It would show green when the battery is in warranty and red when misuse has damaged the battery.

supposedly there is new tech 'right around the corner' that will be a game changer..so far, crickets.

There is always a new tech right around the corner. 

[T.S. Zarathustra]

For 2025 I don't expect much in terms of changes. What I would expect is a "mid-range" Zero motorcycle. Basically a new Gen2. FX has too small battery to be tempting for me and Gen3 is too big and heavy. There is also a gap in price between these that I'd like to see filled.
The main problem for me with Zero is their design philosophy. Their cypher store was IMHO a big failure. If the bike is equipped with heated grips I want to be able to use them. If it is more cost effective to equip all bikes with heated grips, rather than have it as an option, it should lower the price of bikes and make them more valuable in the future without me having to pay extra in the Cypher store. Same goes for "extra capacity", "faster charge" and most of the other "options" in the Cypher store.
It seems they are no longer a manufacturer that is design driven to provide advanced technical solutions to be a leader, but beancounter driven design that looks everywhere for some pennies at cost of quality and customer satisfaction. Sadly none of the other manufacturers seems to be any better.

Zero have acknowledged the fault with pre-22 bikes 14.4 batteries. Every single one of them is a dud. Get them replaced.

Do you have link to the acknowledgement, that I can show to the dealer to get my battery replaced?
Not that I have battery issues. My 2018 SR with 25000 miles is a daily rider and has easy 100 mile range with 60% highway use. But I would not say no to free replacement battery. 

Reading the previous comments (many ride until battery is completely flat) it seems many are not aware how usage of batteries affects battery life (how long the battery will last, as opposed to how long the charge lasts). In short, a lithium-ion battery should be kept between 20% and 80% state of charge to maximize its lifespan. Previous owner of my bike gave me the attached graph, and I have tried as much as I can to keep state of charge between 20 and 80 percent. Only charge to 100% right before a ride. My bike has plenty of range from a six year old battery.
Excerpts from Zero owners manual.
"If the power pack is fully discharged, it must be charged within 24 hours to prevent damage to the power pack."
"your power pack will benefit from not being charged to 100% unnecessarily."
"CAUTION: Never store your motorcycle at a state of charge less than 30%"

Personally I'd make the BMS log all charging statuses and if (for example) charge goes below 30% show a notice on the dashboard. "Battery warranty will be void if battery is not charged to over 30% within X hours." Then I'd have a warranty status LED on the battery. It would show green when the battery is in warranty and red when misuse has damaged the battery.

supposedly there is new tech 'right around the corner' that will be a game changer..so far, crickets.

There is always a new tech right around the corner. 

I also want them to respect 100% the "Right to repair" my motorcycle. No coding of motor/BMS to mainboard, that today would require a dealer to perform.

[Richard230]

My prediction, as a long-time Zero customer, is that Zero will not make any big improvements to their 2025 lineup, other than to their bikes' colors and maybe graphics. Right now the general motorcycle market sucks, money is tight and financing a vehicle is expensive. Zero tends to be very conservative and they don't spend a penny that they don't have to. My guess is that most of their efforts will be focused on their manufacturing operations in the Philippians and improving their dealer and distribution networks around the world, especially in Southeast Asia. Although that would be a tough row to hoe being so close to China and its cheap and experienced EV manufacturers.

[princec]

Zero's main problem really is price. Or specifically value - their bikes aren't worth what they cost, and this is reflected in their eye-watering first year depreciation. So the Philippines manufacturing might help them shave a couple of grand off of the price there.

Unfortunately I don't have hard evidence of the 14.4 battery issue other than discussion between myself and my dealer, with the dealer telling me matter-of-factly that every single bike they sold between 2019-2022 has come back in and Zero has quietly acknowledged and replaced every single battery so far.

Cas

[ESokoloff]

…….

Unfortunately I don't have hard evidence of the 14.4 battery issue other than discussion between myself and my dealer, with the dealer telling me matter-of-factly that every single bike they sold between 2019-2022 has come back in and Zero has quietly acknowledged and replaced every single battery so far.

Cas

My 2016 DSR had its original battery replaced 7-7-21 with a new 14.4 & that was 33k trouble free miles ago (Note that some afterwards I started limiting my SOC levels (both high & low).

[KuRi]

Zero have acknowledged the fault with pre-22 bikes 14.4 batteries. Every single one of them is a dud. Get them replaced.
I get 125 miles out of the new battery and it's been great ever since, with the caveat that they have nerfed 12kW charging (software to blame in this instance I think).

I too won't be looking to upgrade now until there's a 50% capacity increase, or a 100% charging rate increase, whichever comes sooner.

If they know what's good for them though they'll do something about that fecking belt drive.

Cas

I contacted Zero regarding my 2020 DSR showing magic charge (from 15% to 25%) and they refused to replace battery, they say it is over 80% capacity.

[princec]

They're full o' shit then. The point about magic charge is that the battery is actually operating at 50% capacity and will leave you stranded at the side of the road, and then while you wait for the AA to turn up it will have miraculously recharged itself.

Something something "voltage crimp".

Cas

[DonTom]

I contacted Zero regarding my 2020 DSR showing magic charge (from 15% to 25%) and they refused to replace the battery, they say it is over 80% capacity.

That is only a 10% loss of range between 15 & 25%. And that ten % returns.    They need to see at least a 20.01% loss to replace the battery under warranty.


Nevertheless, your battery has a problem. Just that problem is not covered under warranty until it gets worse. And it probably will. It happened on my Zero DS but it was so bad they could not deny a warranty claim after some time, but I made sure it was before the end of the warranty before I brought the bike into the shop.


They get the battery info from the bike's log. They send that indo to Zero and they either approve or do not approve the replacement 100% based on that.


Mine was approved, yours was not because of the info on the bike's log. There is nothing to complain about. They are going by the written words of the warranty.


You just want it to get a lot worse before your five-year battery warranty expires. It was around three years old when mine showed obvious problems. Which got a lot worse over the next several months.


BTW, it worked out very well for me. They junked my 6.5 KWH battery and they installed a 7.2 KWH battery at no cost to me.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[TheRan]

I contacted Zero regarding my 2020 DSR showing magic charge (from 15% to 25%) and they refused to replace the battery, they say it is over 80% capacity.

That is only a 10% loss of range between 15 & 25%. And that ten % returns.    They need to see at least a 20.01% loss to replace the battery under warranty.


Nevertheless, your battery has a problem. Just that problem is not covered under warranty until it gets worse.

Just because the battery doesn't have a great enough reduction in capacity doesn't mean it's not covered by the warranty, that's not the only term to it. The battery is still defective.

Zero warrants that all factory manufactured 2021 Zero
Motorcycles are free from defects in material and workmanship
during the period of this Limited Warranty.

[DonTom]

Zero warrants that all factory manufactured 2021 ZeroMotorcycles are free from defects in material and workmanship
during the period of this Limited Warranty.

The problem there is they (Zero) gets to define what a "defect" is.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[TheRan]

If someone took them to court I don't think they would. A battery isn't supposed to do that, and they don't do it fresh from the factory.