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Author Topic: 2025  (Read 1293 times)

DesignerDan

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2025
« on: September 12, 2024, 08:49:50 PM »

It’s getting to be around that time of year again. Any last minute predictions or rumors about the 2025 line up?

My friend and I who both own the 2021 SR/S said that we need to see a massive battery upgrade this year for us to upgrade and not sell our bikes. They are only getting about 52 miles highway.

I remember back in 2013 Zero’s website said they estimate the battery to last 450k miles. Well almost a decade later, the 2021 batteries can’t even make it past 30k miles without degrading below 80% of their original capacity.

False Advertising. Simple as that.
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Bfgthomas

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That would be me.
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2024, 09:06:59 PM »

Yep my 2021 has been in the shop up in Tampa FL trying to get a new battery for over a month now and I still don't think zero approved it yet. If they don't I am not getting another zero. 25k miles and 3 years old and I'm barely getting 52 miles highway to go see my dad. I'll get home at like 2% and it's only going to get worse. To the point where I can even ride it to the next town.
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princec

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Re: 2025
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2024, 09:22:28 PM »

Zero have acknowledged the fault with pre-22 bikes 14.4 batteries. Every single one of them is a dud. Get them replaced.
I get 125 miles out of the new battery and it's been great ever since, with the caveat that they have nerfed 12kW charging (software to blame in this instance I think).

I too won't be looking to upgrade now until there's a 50% capacity increase, or a 100% charging rate increase, whichever comes sooner.

If they know what's good for them though they'll do something about that fecking belt drive.

Cas :)
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flynnstig82r

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Re: 2025
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2024, 09:44:24 PM »

52 miles? That’s hideous. My 2017 Zero SR 13.0 kWh squeaked out 77 miles, all but 3 of those highway. Granted, it turned itself off 3 times and I had to coast down the last hill unpowered, but it made it. I sold my SS9 13.4 because I could never count on more than 50-55 highway miles no matter what I did to the aerodynamics or gearing.

Zero does seem to have a significant range advantage for a given battery size over Energica. People have been reporting 100+ mile highway on the 17.3 SR/S, which is roughly what 21.5 kWh EVA Ribelles and SS9’s have been getting. Despite the company’s shenanigans with dud 14.4 packs, mismatched-voltage power tanks, and firmware with magic charging, I’d still consider a DSR/X if they ever add DCFC. One of these days, Zero is just going to have to rip the band-aid off and raise the pack voltage above 200 volts. The longer they wait, the more it’s going to hurt.
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2007 Yamaha FJR1300 AE

Past bikes:
2020 Energica SS9 13.4 kWh
2017 Zero SR 13.0 kWh
2011 Ducati Multistrada 1200 S Touring
2016 MV Agusta Turismo Veloce 800
2012 Yamaha FZ6R

DonTom

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Re: 2025
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2024, 10:06:58 PM »

52 miles? That’s hideous. My 2017 Zero SR 13.0 kWh squeaked out 77 miles, all but 3 of those highway. Granted, it turned itself off 3 times and I had to coast down the last hill unpowered, but it made it. I sold my SS9 13.4 because I could never count on more than 50-55 highway miles no matter what I did to the aerodynamics or gearing.

Zero does seem to have a significant range advantage for a given battery size over Energica. People have been reporting 100+ mile highway on the 17.3 SR/S, which is roughly what 21.5 kWh EVA Ribelles and SS9’s have been getting. Despite the company’s shenanigans with dud 14.4 packs, mismatched-voltage power tanks, and firmware with magic charging, I’d still consider a DSR/X if they ever add DCFC. One of these days, Zero is just going to have to rip the band-aid off and raise the pack voltage above 200 volts. The longer they wait, the more it’s going to hurt.
Since Zero can charge at 13.2 KW (with the extra charger) IMO, DCFC is NOT much of an issue as long as you can find the AC charge stations to support it.


On a very hot day, my Energicas will only charge at around 11KW max on a DCFC.  20 KW on a cooler day.


-Don-  Reno, NV
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1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
2017 Blk/Gold HD Road Glide Ultra
2017 Org Zero DS ZF 6.5/(now is 7.2)
2017 Red Zero SR ZF13 w/ Pwr Tank
2020 Energica EVA SS9
2023 Energica Experia LE
2023 Zero DSR/X

MVetter

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Re: 2025
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2024, 10:44:25 PM »

52 highway miles on an SR/S means there is a massive problem with your battery and you should probably go through the warranty process.

I would not expect a massive battery bump because they just had a massive battery bump with the BCB packs using the P73 cells. Unless they decide Farasis' new P84 cells are a good fit and meet their requirements I don't see a battery bump for a couple years. But hey I could be wrong. That would make it jump from a 146Ah pack to a 168Ah pack which would bump the 17.3 figure closer to 19.6kWh. Marketing numbers of course.
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DesignerDan

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Re: 2025
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2024, 11:30:23 PM »

52 highway miles on an SR/S means there is a massive problem with your battery and you should probably go through the warranty process.

I would not expect a massive battery bump because they just had a massive battery bump with the BCB packs using the P73 cells. Unless they decide Farasis' new P84 cells are a good fit and meet their requirements I don't see a battery bump for a couple years. But hey I could be wrong. That would make it jump from a 146Ah pack to a 168Ah pack which would bump the 17.3 figure closer to 19.6kWh. Marketing numbers of course.

The problem with this is I owned a 2013 S that crapped out after after 40k miles. Zero said it was a battery defect and replaced the battery with a 2015 ZF 12.6 under the battery replacement program. Then after another 40k miles, the battery crapped out again. Zero again blamed battery defects. I foolishly thought that the 2021 ZF 14.4 would actually work the way it’s supposed to and so I bought the SR/S and here we are again, starting to crap out at 30k miles and Zero yet again blames battery defects. I have zero (no pun intended) faith that their 2022+ ZF 17.3 will be any different.

When will Zero grow up and admit to their customers that they have no idea how to make a battery that preforms at the levels that they always claim?

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MVetter

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Re: 2025
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2024, 12:11:41 AM »

Well it's, *checks watch* 2024 and the corporate culture of today is pretty abysmal so.... never?
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flynnstig82r

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Re: 2025
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2024, 12:34:45 AM »

Since Zero can charge at 13.2 KW (with the extra charger) IMO, DCFC is NOT much of an issue as long as you can find the AC charge stations to support it.


On a very hot day, my Energicas will only charge at around 11KW max on a DCFC.  20 KW on a cooler day.


-Don-  Reno, NV
That was also my experience with charging my SS9. I saw 9 kW on hot days pretty regularly, and as low as 6 kW on rare occasions. But to me that just means they need better cooling for the pack. I don’t consider it an inherent flaw of DCFC over AC charging. I also never got anywhere near the rated amount on my ‘17 SR with 2.5 kW charge tank, 1.3 kW OBC, and 3.3 kW ElCon charger on hot days. Often the combined charging rate was around 4.4 kW. Not sure whether that was because the pack was getting too hot or the chargers themselves. I couldn’t touch the ElCon with my bare hands for a good 10 minutes after charging, so I suspect the latter.

20+ kW charging should really be considered a minimum goal, and the high-end electric OEMs should be striving for something more like 50 peak, 30+ kW average over the session. That would bring 20->80% charge sessions down to 20 mins or so, and would convince a lot more people to try electric motorcycles. Now granted, 50 kW peak might only be achievable with liquid cooling of the pack, but I think sustained 20 kW can be achieved by just making pack cooling a higher priority in the design. More airflow and heat transfer to parts like the AC charger that can dissipate it more easily and don’t get used during riding.
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2007 Yamaha FJR1300 AE

Past bikes:
2020 Energica SS9 13.4 kWh
2017 Zero SR 13.0 kWh
2011 Ducati Multistrada 1200 S Touring
2016 MV Agusta Turismo Veloce 800
2012 Yamaha FZ6R

MVetter

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Re: 2025
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2024, 12:44:01 AM »

Think of it less about kW output and more about C rating. I think 3C is the magic number to shoot for, and that will definitely require active cooling.
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Specter

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Re: 2025
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2024, 04:05:37 AM »

Most manufacturers don't like to go much above the 1C rate.  Even Energica with its massive 75 Amp charge, that's only pushing a bit over 1C.  They do this for longevity purposes.

Active cooling, now you are adding a bit of a price hike to the bike, heavier, and more fluids to have to monitor /babysit.  I wonder if anyone did any kind of research about how much it would cost to put an active cooling on a bike.   A bike like energica could tie it in with their existing cooling system for the inverter/motor, but that'd be a bit of work there, those battery boxes are packed TIGHT!!  I can't really see where they'd be any room for liquid to trickle thru.   That's another problem, you can't just run water over the cells / pouches, everything has to be TIGHT, both watertight and joined, so there is nothing loose to vibrate in there.

supposedly there is new tech 'right around the corner' that will be a game changer..so far, crickets.

Aaron
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TheRan

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Re: 2025
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2024, 04:19:45 AM »

Even just a water jacket on the outside running over some of the cooling fins already existing on the battery pack (not all of them, you still want some air cooling when riding the bike) would be an improvement for charging where you're relying on convection instead of force airflow. The battery pack is already designed to fairly decently transfer heat from the cells to the housing. You could even DIY your own solution using some PC watercooling supplies and the biggest waterblocks you can find if there's a suitably flat areas on the casing to attach them. The thought had crossed my mind for doing the same with the air cooled motor on the gen 2 bikes but there's not much room between it and the swingarm.
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Specter

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Re: 2025
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2024, 04:22:19 AM »

Get some usb powered or 12 volt powered computer fans and velcro them to the case,  power is right there.  I have a little box fan I shove up there when Iam fast charging .. at least until I build something a bit better /more airflow

aaron
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DonTom

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Re: 2025
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2024, 05:49:56 AM »

That was also my experience with charging my SS9. I saw 9 kW on hot days pretty regularly, and as low as 6 kW on rare occasions. But to me that just means they need better cooling for the pack. I don’t consider it an inherent flaw of DCFC over AC charging. I also never got anywhere near the rated amount on my ‘17 SR with 2.5 kW charge tank, 1.3 kW OBC, and 3.3 kW ElCon charger on hot days. Often the combined charging rate was around 4.4 kW. Not sure whether that was because the pack was getting too hot or the chargers themselves. I couldn’t touch the ElCon with my bare hands for a good 10 minutes after charging, so I suspect the latter.

20+ kW charging should really be considered a minimum goal, and the high-end electric OEMs should be striving for something more like 50 peak, 30+ kW average over the session. That would bring 20->80% charge sessions down to 20 mins or so, and would convince a lot more people to try electric motorcycles. Now granted, 50 kW peak might only be achievable with liquid cooling of the pack, but I think sustained 20 kW can be achieved by just making pack cooling a higher priority in the design. More airflow and heat transfer to parts like the AC charger that can dissipate it more easily and don’t get used during riding.
At least when temperatures are moderate, look at the wattage on the charge station, NOT on the bike. The voltage drops on the bike (load) side, reducing the wattage at the same current (the current is the same on each end of the cable, unlike the voltage). IOW, the AC voltage to the bike's charger (or the battery in the case of a DCFC)  will be a hair less than the wattage supplied. Consider it normal with your 3.3 KW plus 1.3KW=4.4KW instead of 4.6KW.


To get the full wattage the charge station would have to raise its voltage a little so you can get the full charge voltage on the bike's charger (AC) input or at the battery (DCFC). Or have a MUCH thicker cable with less loss (which will increase both the current as well as the voltage at the load end).


IOW, you're just seeing the normal voltage drop of the charging cable.


The difference is negligible anyway. Seconds of difference in charge times.


But like you say, what would make a big difference is battery cooling. While they figured out how to do this in cars, motorcycles probably don't have the room--but Energica has cooling for the inverter, just not the battery. And the battery would be more difficult to cool because even 90° F (32.2C) is hot for an EV battery. Normal EV battery temps are from 26 to 35°C (68 to 86°F). The center of that range to try for will be 77¯F (30.5 °C).


Better yet will be if somebody invents a battery with as many KWHs for its size and weight that has a much wider temperature spec. and doesn't require heating and cooling. But since EV cars can deal with this in other ways, I doubt if there is much hurry to take care of such issues on electric motorcycles.



-Don-  Reno, NV
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1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
2017 Blk/Gold HD Road Glide Ultra
2017 Org Zero DS ZF 6.5/(now is 7.2)
2017 Red Zero SR ZF13 w/ Pwr Tank
2020 Energica EVA SS9
2023 Energica Experia LE
2023 Zero DSR/X

MVetter

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Re: 2025
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2024, 07:01:59 AM »

The previous-gen Energicas charged over 2C, but that was with the old split-channel case that allowed airflow during riding to quickly cool the core of the pack off. That's part of the main reasons I still have a 2018 model. When Energica effectively doubled their pack capacity they also got rid of that cooling channel which doesn't impact the vast majority of owners, but to us multiple charge back-to-back riders it was a serious factor.

The pack with the best thermal management available right now I think has to be the LiveWire One. It's got those nice RAM scoops the funnel air to the core of the pack, the large fins acting as heat sinks, and every cell in contact with part of the battery case that has airflow. I really think they could have been a LOT more aggressive with their charging algorithm. It goes up to 1.5C at the bottom 0-->40% of the charge cycle, but then tapers off to boring numbers. But you can watch the pack cool off very quickly during the followup ride. I'm curious to see if and when they give the pack a refresh; I think it's time.
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