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[socalmoto91]

The overall condition of electric motorcycle manufacturers in general is challenging. 
Are there any concerns on the financial condition of Ideanomics parent of Energica? In the SEC 2023 Q3 filling (the last filing made) Ideanomics states that for the first 3 quarters of 2023 Energica had revenue of $6m with a net loss of $11m. Ideanomics took down their investment page on their website recently. They have not filed their 2023 year end results yet even though they were due to the SEC by March 31. Cash position is weak and Ideanomics stated in the Q3 2023 SEC filing Energica is listed as an asset for sale. As for Energica unit sales if you take the $6m in revenue and divide by $25,000 per bike that is 240 units worldwide – and that is if all the revenue is from bike sales not parts etc. Ideanomics is trading at under $1 – can they be delisted? Ideanomics market cap is $12m and that is for all their holdings, VIA Motors, Solectric Tractors, Wave, US Hybrids and Energica. This is all public information.
Any thoughts on this?

[nevetsyad]

Sure, but lets look at the competition -

Lightning Motorcycles posted their financials once:

Revenue from sale of motorcycles in 2021: $175k

Cheapest bikes are $20k. Most expensive are $40k

They sold between 4-8 motorcycles in 2021. If Energica sold 240 units, Energica is 40x larger than the local competition.

Any thoughts on this?

*EDIT* I guess that isn't fair, that's a year of Lightning sales vs 3 quarters for Energica. So, ~8 million in revenue and ~320 units for the year. 53x Larger than Lightning?

[Specter]

Ahh, so you ARE a shill / troll for the Defunct, or should we say, never fully alive,  'L' company.

General electric lost tons of money in the E vehicle market.
Ford lost a lot of money in the E vehicle market.
Tesla is having some issues as well, and they are the leading edge of the E wave.
So did a lot of the other companies, lose money.
Rivian is another start up that is several million in the hole, losing money each vehicle yet still going.
So why do you act like this is a unique thing?

Not very honest of you.

Aaron

[Specter]

Energica is selling bikes right now.

I can literally walk into a dealer  right now, and walk out in a few hours, with a brand new EGO or Ribelle... those are the only two the Orlando dealership currently has because his other bikes are sold out and he's waiting for new stock.

Where can I walk in and get a Lightning bike?  where could I EVER have walked in and gotten a lightning bike.  Why are there no pictures in the general public domain of one of their bikes being used in a general setting that is NOT a closed and / or PR event?   Unlike Energica / Zero / LiveWire etc where there are TONS of pictures of them being driven by normal people, having fun with them in a PUBLIC setting.

In fact there is an entire thread in this forum, of an individual having fun on their Energica Bike.
Not so much for Lightning...
WHY is that?

curious minds and all.

Aaron

[Fran K]

It is kind of puzling wondering how the business model works.  Look at Tesla and their stock that may never pay a dividend as the CEO wants so much $ a dividend seems an unrealistic expectation.  I have noticed that Solatrac removed their largest tractor, an orchard model.  That seemed to kind of go with start in California and distribute from there business model for Energica.

What is the politics of the electric road racing fim version.  Why did they go to a different maker of all the same instead of letting Damon and any others compete with some production based rules?  Or some more experimental in nature rules.  Was the fear Honda would play?

Energica sure has changed this site as when I joined it was pretty much a Zero support group.  I do wonder what Energica has on the drawing board so to say.  I really like my KTM but no one else here has one and will discuss it.  Pretty much the same on ktmtalk.com.  Royal Enfield which is an Indian outfit now has bought a piece of Stark electdric motorcycles so something like that may happen.

[Grauteufel]

I do wonder what Energica has on the drawing board so to say.

This is the only thing I've ever seen about future plans, and its two years old (MCN 19/10/22)

Electric brand Energica have plans to develop up to five new models based on the Experia adventure bike before the end of 2027. Sales Director Giacomo Leone confirmed the move at the Intermot show in Cologne, Germany earlier this month.

“This is the first bike of a range that we will develop based on the Experia,” Leone said. “We have a plan up to 2027.”

The sales chief would not go into full details but did say that the plans will see four or five different machines all sharing a common motor/frame platform.""

[Specter]

Given the economy is shit, and we are about to get into a world war here, I am betting pretty much all vehicle companies are kind of holding back a bit to see what is going to happen with the whole electric thing.

They may have plans for new models, as do / did pretty much every other EV maker out there, but may be sitting on them, just like the other manu's are, to see what is coming their way first.

Was it BMW or Mercedes who basically tabled their move to end ICE vehicles, saying, well, not so fast on that, the E thing is not working out like we were told it would.?

It'd be nice to see some touring bikes from Energica, but something that's genuinely DIFFERENT, not just the same bike with a few minor tweaks or twiddles to it.  Maybe a side car model, and they could put a second battery in there instead of the usual biker bitch

Maybe something with a REAL  400 mile range on it, not EPA miles.

That is the one thing that is going to plague the entire e market is the charging times.  People are spoiled and want their 5 minute fill ups and get back on the road.  Although to be honest, you get 20 bikes pulling into a gas station to fill up, it's going to take 30 minutes to get them all on the road again anyways for various reasons that anyone who'd ever been there, understand

Aaron

[Stonewolf]

Economics aren't doing EVs any favours at the moment, the stats for the over 35kW segment for electric motorbikes in the UK are pretty desperate for instance.

In terms of BEV motorbikes I think we have a significant technology plateau and are mainly waiting for solid state to shake things up.

Energica specificly from conversations with their UK distributor are concentrating on Experia production and spending big on new bike development isn't a good move atm for them.

[Specter]

The economy is not doing ANYONE an favors in pretty much every sector you can think of, except medical care since they poisoned billions with that clot shot and now can make more trillions pretending to heal them, or the funeral / mortician services and just burying them.

Will this turn around,  probably not anytime soon.  Even cars, the glamour has worn off on them.  If a solid state battery did come out, or something that would extend the range, that would help, but the key problem seems to be the charging times.  Z's are notoriously intolerant, impatient etc.  Asking them to spend more than 10 minutes waiting for something to fill / charge, you might as well ask them to put their sorry phones down for 30 seconds.

I seen an article recently stating that a Japanese company had a breakthrough on a battery that has like 100x the power density, does not use a lot of rare earth's and is quite a bit easier to make, BUT so far, is only being manu'd at like watch battery size.  One of the main issues it seems, is that is a ceramic based item, and making a BIG one for a vehicle, it's fragile, and can break easily, so they are trying to figure out how to get around that.  Maybe just a bunch of small ones in a tube, kind of like the old 9V batteries were just small 1.5's stacked??

Even if we do get solid state batteries even at 1000x the capacity, the infrastructure is NOT ready to support an EV revolution.  It simply is not set to generate and / or distribute the power as needed.  Take Californica as an example, they can't keep the lights on now as it is for just basic lighting and AC in the summer.  Texas in the winter for heating, Florida would be a similar case.  So now you want to add gigawatts of demand? 

There's a lot of work to do across the board, and it's not a quick fix either.  In some area's it's going to take a total overhaul of the existing grid /distribution system.  This honestly is a decades long project to do properly.  Solar on houses would help a bit, but who's paying for it?  People can barely afford what they have now, with the current economy, telling them, yah lets tack on 50k of more debt burden, not happening.  OHHHHH but we'll finance it !!  We'll bury it in your mortgage,so it cost you 150k by the time you paid for it!!!

[EsseEsse]

The overall condition of electric motorcycle manufacturers in general is challenging. 
Are there any concerns on the financial condition of Ideanomics parent of Energica?

Yes, there are. The full-year numbers have come out since the start of this thread. For the year Energica had sales of $7.6 mm, down 27% from 2022. The company ascribed it to a softer market, but as you noted they didn't introduce a 2024 model year, they aren't having a 2024 Energica Week, and there have been no recent announcements of new models or new uses for their motor (planes, boats, etc.). They appear (without certainty because of Ideanomics' reporting levels) to have some access to debt capital but they are clearly capital constrained.

I estimate Energica's revenue per unit to be around $20,000, leaving the rest to dealers &ct.; perhaps a dealer will come along to give a better figure. If that's right, they lost $9500 or so on every motorcycle just on the gross margin line. Selling, General, and Administrative expenses would increase the loss. That is just not sustainable. The company needs a new partner, one willing to throw tens of millions of dollars into the company.

And that's a challenge. We don't have Zero's numbers, but we saw them do layoffs and cutbacks, and they raised $100 mm two years ago. Livewire lost $21,000 for every bike it shipped last quarter, again on the gross profit line alone. Compare that to Ola, which makes electric scoots (max power 11 kw) in India. That company has a positive gross margin but is still bleeding cash.

Even stripping aside Ideanomics' malodorous role in the Energica story, it faces challenges, as does the industry. The market for $25,000 motorcycles is fairly small -- gas and electric alike. It is smaller still for $25,000 motorcycles that don't have a logo matching the customers' pre-existing tattoos. And clearly, it is smaller still for electrics. And no one is making profits on a ful-sized electric bike. That leads to a small investor pool, and many of the potential industry partners have either invested in Zero, said they're gonna go it alone, or are publicly saying electrics are not a near-term priority.

There's some room for optimism. They're still the best electrics out there. But they need to get better still, and they need new models including a true tourer and a low-cost model. That takes money. Money Energica does not have.

[Stonewolf]

My honest opinion is Energica shouldn't touch tourers with a bargepole, it's a battle they cannot win at a time when choosing their battles is of paramount importance. Experia has a market segment that works for it, it's the cop bike that takes advantage of the peculiarities of fleet mandates and that's great but it's not lighting anyone on fire and it probably can't because you will never capture the 300 miles per tank on the autobahn guys with the kinds of numbers Energica can realisticly put out or arguments that what they're asking for isn't needed.

If you want to know what the battle Energica can win is, it's the one they're already fighting. A Tuono V4 ridden on the twisty backroads will get 130 miles before reserve, 150 and you're on fumes. I rode an MT-10 last year following the owner around in his pickup and I used a whole tank on 125 miles, again about 150 and you're on fumes. A 40% increase in capacity and your ex-urban numbers are equalling those machines, you can get that just from a 1 for 1 replacement of lipo cells for solid state cells (and you'd drop to about 235kg in the deal).

A reasonable strategy for Energica would be
1) Secure enough funding to keep bikes going out the door, do the R&D they need and prebuild enough next gen bikes to get the initial economy of scale rolling
2) Close the order book on Ego platform and move everyone to Experia, it sounds like I'm contradicting myself but Ego is an expensive platform to produce and Experia is less so, pulls in enough numbers to keep the company busy, and needs those numbers to maintain its cost point
3) Re-engineer a next gen Eva Ribelle, cheaper to manufacture (designed for the scale needed to close the price gap at least somewhat), aim to get the first mover headline on solid state

[EsseEsse]

My honest opinion is Energica shouldn't touch tourers with a bargepole, it's a battle they cannot win at a time when choosing their battles is of paramount importance. Experia has a market segment that works for it...

That's definitely another approach, and probably the one they should take in the short term. I just wonder if in the long term that single segment can support a company that needs as much capital as Energica does just to stay alive. The structural problem they and their competitors face is right now a rider can have the following choices:

1) Full power and reasonable range but either the bike costs $25,000 and the company loses $10,000 in addition to that or it costs $15,000 and the company loses $20,000 in addition to that or;

2) An underpowered bike with bare commuting range.

Solving problem one will take both R&D dollars and much higher volumes. I don't know of any motorcycle companies, gas or electric, that can make a buck shipping 350-400 bikes per year. Particularly with worldwide distribution and a big-company capital structure.

[Stonewolf]

Diversifying is a good idea, but not one that suits a company that needs to hit its fundamentals just to keep itself going. A varied lineup is more expensive to maintain than a single model, that's why modern cars are generally built with all the options included and unlock them with software, it's why Zero tried to follow the same model. Production is all about streamlining and scale.

[Specter]

I believe right now, they, like most every other company is holding  their breath to see what happens come election time.  Does the world go to shit in a handbag, or is there a hope of some sort of change?  Never mind just America, the entire globe is about to explode.  Love him or hate him, Trump is about the only person at this point who has a chance at stopping that.  The current crew actually seems to WANT that, and it won't bode well for anyone.

Even if everything turns out good, wonderful, pick your feel good verb, it's still going to take a few years IMO to turn back around, or even begin to.  Hopefully they can last that long to see the good days come back around.

Another thing that does NOT help them is they really don't advertise much at all.  I can't say how many people I have come across, who know of zero's, know of live wire but when they see my bike go, who are they?  If it was a ducatti, or a busa, or a gixxer, they'd know who it is.  Their name is not known, and if you don't get your face out there, you are going to have a hard time selling your bikes.  Ive let a number of people try  my bike at the track, and they come off it giggling like a child, and loved it, but that's not enough to sell bikes at a profitable, or even sustainable rate!  The fact that the dealer out here is ... well..... not the best... doesn't help much either.

I love them but lets be honest, the fact that sometimes you have to wait MONTHS for a bike to get here or parts, is absolutely NOT Helping them either!  They really need to tighten down on their supply chain a bit imo.  I get it, times are tight but one can't let it slow strangle their company.  Hopefully soon, something comes along and helps them out.   If they could maybe send the bikes over to the states as a 'kit' some how and have them put together here, to qualify for the tax credit, that'd be a huge help.  Moving out of California would absolutely help them too, the cost of doing business there is killing them.  That is why so many other company's are and continue to move out of that hell hole.

Stefano does a great job on the track with the bike showing off to the Moto  crowd but we got to get more face time than that.  The fact that you have to subscribe to the group (motoamerica??) to even see the race is not helpful either.

Now lets look at the other companies and the battery problems that continue to plague them.  Im just hoping that they all can pull through.  The mindset is cooling down on Electric overall, and they brought it on themselves somewhat too.  In the end, if the situation globally does not improve, there won't be much need to worry about it.  EMP's will take that worry off your bucket list.

As for getting rid of the EGO?  Umm,  there IS a niche there for it.  Id not want to see it totally go away.  When you look at it, the EGO and Ribelle are a LOT alike.  A difff seat, diff handlebars, some plastic and programming really.  There's still room for both.  Maybe concentrate on the Ribelle for mass market and EGO on demand?

The younguns will like the ego, us older fuxx, being bent over like that in traffic for an hour... sorry, no thanks.  But the EGO DOES take off a lot better than the Ribelle, it's a ton easier to hold down on a hard romp

Aaron

[princec]

The young 'uns can't afford an Ego, nor its insurance.

Sportsbikes are kinda dead in Europe too. A very niche market. They would be wise to concentrate on the 40-80bhp segment of naked bikes, adventure, and maxi-scoots which actually sell over here.

Cas