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[Motoproponent]

AC charging is Dead and Dying. There is no R&D going into making smaller chargers and there are no incentives to build more 6kw AC chargers when government grants can be had to put in 150-350 kw DC chargers.

Maybe the aftermarket can come up with a topcase or something that has a J-1772 input (or two?) and a 6kw -  12kw CCS output.

I'm fully on board with bikes that can DCFC having slow AC charging. That is the perfect use case for electric motorcycles. If Energica can find room for anything, let it be active cooling! So I can DCFC over and over again at full charge speed.

[DonTom]

AC charging is Dead and Dying.

Out here, it is much the opposite. AC stations are cheap and easy to install. The DCFC in this area break and nobody ever fixes them.

Casinos, Ski resorts, restaurants, motels (such as Willow Springs Lodge in North San Juan, CA and Chalet View Lodge in Portola, CA that are open to non-guests) often have J-1772 or Tesla Destination chargers.  Also places such as Virgina City, NV many city halls, such as Sparks, NV And places such as Fallon, NV where the J-1772 but the DCFC has been broken for years. Also, libraries such as the two in Georgetown, CA.

And a lot of plug-in Hybrids can only use J-1772. 

-Don-  Reno, NV

[flynnstig82r]

I’ve been on both sides of the AC/DC debate. When I had my SS9 13.4, I would only stop at an L2 long enough to get to a DC charger, since 3 vs 6 kW makes little difference compared to 23 kW DC. On the other hand, it would have been nice to get more range while stopping at a cafe or restaurant, and I might have taken scenic routes with AC chargers if I didn’t have to wait so long. It would also have been nice to have 6 kW on routes where there’s no DC, like the PCH from Monterey to Santa Barbara which only had a single AC charging location at a hospitality site in-between last time I checked.

[Zelidar]

... since 3 vs 6 kW makes little difference compared to 23 kW DC.

Here I must respectfully disagree, respectfully because I have only have AC charging experience regarding motorcycles, but I do know that AC charging stations are considerably more spread out than DC charging stations, mostly because DC stations start at 40 k$ while AC stations top at about 4 k$.

I have over 73'000 km on my SR/F and I only did about 20% of that while commuting. On long rides a charging stop at 6 kW takes me between 20 and 40 minutes, which ideally fits having a break, snacking & drinking, talking a walk around. With 3 kW that would have been at least 40 to over an hour, thus not tolerable for me in most cases.

By the way, I am in the process of selling my SR/F, so that I can buy a DSR/X.
https://www.motoscout24.ch/en/d/11405586

[flynnstig82r]

If I was at an AC station with my SS9, it was an unplanned range-anxiety stop, and I only stopped long enough to add 10 or 15% to make it to a DC charger. That’s what I meant by 3 vs 6 kW didn’t really matter for my typical rides.

[DonTom]

If I was at an AC station with my SS9, it was an unplanned range-anxiety stop, and I only stopped long enough to add 10 or 15% to make it to a DC charger. That’s what I meant by 3 vs 6 kW didn’t really matter for my typical rides.

With the added charger, you can get 13.2 KW charging on the Zero DSR/X where supported. Many of the places I charge up at cannot even do the full 6.6 KW, but I find it is fast enough for me. I enjoy long breaks, often under a shady tree or whatever, using my computer to post messages like this or a lunch stop or whatever. If I am out on the bike, I am in no hurry to get anywhere fast.  I also don't want to give up the extra storage space for the extra charger.


But I find the 3KW charging to be too slow, in most cases, and then the only time I use AC stations is when home, or like you say, to get enough juice to make it to a DCFC.


I find with my Energicas, to get the full 24KW is rather rare. Often the battery is too hot to charge at 24 KW or whatever it can really do when temps are perfect.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Oilcan]

I had the rapid charger installed on myDSR/X the first week of February and so far I am happy I did. Where I ride I am able to find 48 amp 10 to 11 kw chargers. While it’s not as fast as the Energica with DC charging it’s close. I can charge from 5% to 100% in just over an hour and before it was over two hours. That’s a big difference on a 250 + day ride. I does cost a lot of money and may not be necessary for some people.
I purchased my bike in July 2023 and have just under 10,000 trouble free miles so far. I am very happy with the DSR/X

[mdjak1]

AC charging is Dead and Dying. There is no R&D going into making smaller chargers and there are no incentives to build more 6kw AC chargers when government grants can be had to put in 150-350 kw DC chargers.

Except that no one is installing DC charging in their garage.   So decent speed AC charging is still important.  This is one reason why Livewire's decision to only do very slow AC and normal DC never really made sense to me.   Note that on their new bike, they included level 2 AC charging.

[Specter]

I see your points on the AC charging but would have to say they are not dead and dying but are very much alive, and easily obtainable.
DC you need a special charger, which is expensive as hell, and then have to wire in a special circuit generally to run it.  OFt  times you need a transformer and a dedicated line, which adds several more thousands to the price of the project.

An AC charger, you can get 12 KW in essence, right off your already in place mains, with an already established Nema 14-50 plug.

Yes OF COURSE DC is much faster, much more convenient, but what about when it's NOT there?
This is more where I am looking.  Even without the 50 amp branch circuit, even a 30 amp Nema circuit can get you 6KW of charging, which is very handy, and I believe you can pull it off on 8 to 10 gauge wire, which still, is on the cheaper end of the price per foot spectrum should you DO find yourself having to run a new leg.,

What if, pretty much every restaurant you pulled into, the phone store, the UPS store, the Dunkin Doughnuts, The Zippypinhead's burger slop joint, the DMV, the train station, etc etc, every place you pull, has a charging station that's 30 to 50 amps?  Or at least has a plug (very cheap to install) so YOU can bring your OWN charger and plug it in and charge your vehicle?  An AC charger, a 32 amp one can be bought for a few hundred dollars tops.   That'll give you up to 7kw anywhere you go, and if you make a dongle adapter, even when you got nothing  but a shitty little 115vac, you can pull 12 amps for 1.4 KW, spend an hour drinking a coffee and a donut, that 1.5 kw will get you to the next charger, a real charger etc type of thing.

The smallest AC charger is oh wow I want to say 99 dollars.
The smallest DC charger I seen starts at about 600 dollars, but is not on the market yet, and ones that are a few thousand  dollars.

6kw ac charging available, makes a trip very doable with a LITTLE planning.
2kw makes a trip TEDIOUS even with a LOT of planning.

Just saying, while it is not a perfect solution it would make life tons easier and really be a huge plus towards pushing people to buy the bike.

Asking someone to install a 200 dollar wall socket on the side of their building, grand or not grant, is a hell of a lot easier than asking them to install a 4000 dollar charging station.

just my 2 wattss worth.
Aaron

[Oilcan]

AC charging is growing quite well. Many small businesses are adding them to attract customers. All the major hotels are adding them, in fact Hilton purchased 20,000 48 amp / 11 kw universal wall chargers from  Tesla to install at most North American locations. Where I live there are 10 times more locations with AC charging than DC charging. The availability of charging is why I purchased a Zero and not an Energica. Also the DC chargers tend to be located just off the interstate and I prefer to ride the back roads or near small towns.

[DonTom]

AC charging is growing quite well. Many small businesses are adding them to attract customers. All the major hotels are adding them, in fact Hilton purchased 20,000 48 amp / 11 kw universal wall chargers from  Tesla to install at most North American locations. Where I live there are 10 times more locations with AC charging than DC charging. The availability of charging is why I purchased a Zero and not an Energica. Also the DC chargers tend to be located just off the interstate and I prefer to ride the back roads or near small towns.

Do you know if Hilton is planning on letting non-customers use them? Some motel/hotels do and some do and some not.


One that welcomes non-customers, even lets non-customers use their lobby and will tell you such, is the Chalet View Lodge here.  So sometimes I go inside and use my computer from a nice comfy chair and table.  They have three Tesla-Destination charge stations, no J-1772, so a Tesla-Tap is a must.  I have yet to see all of them in use.  It's a great location for electric motorcycle rides in the CA mtns.


Another couple of great locations for AC input charging in CA for Mtn electric motorcycle rides are here in Georgetown and in North San Juan.   Also Truckee, CA.


For NV, Virgina City.


Also, all of above are free to use except for the one in North San Juan. You will see a photo of many of my electric motorcycles at all those locations on Plugshare.


The ONLY one close to any type of DCFC in above is Truckee, CA. And expensive to use, instead of free.


If somebody wants to try to build the perfect bike, they need both DCFC and at least 6KW AC for charging, even if that requires a smaller battery and less range for the larger charger. Range is not as important when you have more choices for charging.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Oilcan]

I don’t know what the official Hilton policy will be but they may not be free and therefore public. These universal wall chargers have the magic dock with J1772 and NACS. They also have the ability for the provider to charge a fee. There are four of these above 30 miles from my home that I use on occasion at a hotel and conference center. They charge $0.15 per kWh. If you check your Tesla app under charge your none Tesla you will see them being installed from coast to coast. These have been going in at a rapid pace for about six months.

Most hotels in the south where I live don’t mind none guests charging for free for the time being. I do expect that to change with new equipment installed that allow them to collect money.

[DonTom]

I don’t know what the official Hilton policy will be but they may not be free and therefore public. These universal wall chargers have the magic dock with J1772 and NACS. They also have the ability for the provider to charge a fee. There are four of these above 30 miles from my home that I use on occasion at a hotel and conference center. They charge $0.15 per kWh. If you check your Tesla app under charge your none Tesla you will see them being installed from coast to coast. These have been going in at a rapid pace for about six months.

Most hotels in the south where I live don’t mind none guests charging for free for the time being. I do expect that to change with new equipment installed that allow them to collect money.

There are a few places that are not free and are only open to customers and vice versa.


Examples here and here of where they even charge their paying customers extra for charging up. And nobody else is allowed to use. Same with the KOA campgrounds which recently installed J-plugs.


However, that is all with AC charge stations. I find all hotels and such with DCFC allow anybody to use. Perhaps because they cost more to have and they want to make some of their money back on the DCFCers. And people do not hog those all day and all night long, so there is time for others to use.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[efull]

The availability of charging is why I purchased a Zero and not an Energica.

I did the same thing in France

[Oilcan]

There is also a nonprofit organization called Adapt A Charger funding Level 2 charging at parks , museums, and other public locations coast to coast.