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[jorgebarbosa]

Calling all electric motorcycle enthusiasts!
As someone rooted in the world of two-wheelers, I want to gauge your interest in a electric motorcycle shared/public project.

I see too many electric moto projects that vanish into the digital abyss, myself in my company we are currently trying to bring to production a new electric motorcycle but honestly is quite hard to convince new investors and arrive in production (and we did it two times in the last 5 years). 
My goal is to shift our strategy. Through the community I’m willing to share info of many suppliers, frlm powertrain to chassis and so on. Also based on my recent scouting new suppliers for a previous project, I am prepared to share a substantial number of invoices and offers and many other technical data. The purpose is to assess whether there is genuine interest in developing a new vehicle, kind of open source and discuss the best methods.

Most potential buyers are aware that the primary obstacle in purchasing an (e-moto) is the price. Therefore, the central aim of this project is to create a straightforward yet efficient e-moto.

Let me share an example: In our recent project – the Arig - we collaborated with an Asian supplier to develop a 300V motor and controller, the motor delivers 25kW of rated power and 50kW of peak, combined with a torque of 300N.m.
When evaluating suppliers for a 15kW battery, we found both the specifications and costs to be highly favorable.
However, I’m keen to hear your thoughts. Within the community, we encounter various projects, some led by seasoned experts and others by individuals who are relatively new to the sector.

Please let me know if such project makes sense and your perspectives.

[Fran K]

I get no hits when putting arig electric motorcycle in search


300V motor and controller, the motor delivers 25kW of rated power    sounds good


 a electric motorcycle shared/public project.   sounds suspicious       electric begins with a voul so use an?

15kW battery,   sounds heavy but depending on the size and tires may be appropriate.

direct drive or reduction gear?  Hopefully not hub motor.

Are you copy and pasting this elsewhere?

Fran

[jorgebarbosa]

The Arig project is an internal project of Switch Motors, you can find it in the LinkedIn page https://www.linkedin.com/company/switchmotors or instagram https://www.instagram.com/switch_motors_official. Usually we work for another brands or start-ups.

Well, I can easily understand that it looks suspicions with all that is going on with start-ups in this sector.

There are no "pretensions" so far, the possibilities are few, from starting from scratch or using a existing chassis from other two wheelers. We also have accces to some chassis from other motorcycles, mostly ICE ones

Yes, a 15kW battery is quite big. For the Arig we chhose it because, after some studies, we thought was a good compromise in terms of range and fast charging with the relatively low cost cells.
Smaller battery for a similar range would need a higher spec cell (if we don't want to make the system voltage even higher, and consequently harder to develop a compact motor and vehicle homologation). So that was one of the main reasons for that size.

The Arig has a central mount motor w/ a reduction gear, same pivot axle of the swingarm so to use belt without tensioners and their risks.

No, this is the only post present on the web so far, (23.02.2024) written entirely by myself ( w/ all the advantages and disadvantages ). Frankly I was thinking on sharing in the twitter or other platforms too if i find the right group.

Thank you

[Richard230]

The first electric motorcycle I ever owned was a 2009 Electric Motorsport GPR-S (listed in one of the brands in a dead sub-forum on this site). Electric Motorsport was an electrical component supplier based in Oakland, California that decided to market an electric motorcycle. They had a motorcycle company in Thailand, Tiger, modify one of their existing 250cc model chassis by replacing the ICE equipment with steel boxes sized to fit off-the-shelf Chinese Hi-Power lithium storage (one mistake) batteries. Then they contacted a local electronics guy who designed a hand-built BMS for them on an open circuit board (another mistake) and located an off-the-shelf battery charger that they installed in the bike (another mistake, mine burned up while I was charging my batteries after riding the bike only 300 miles). The commercial electric motor was picked up off of their own supply shelves. This was a small company with the bikes assembled in tiny garage by local temporary employees that were likely paid for each bike assembled. It was about as cheap an operation as could be developed at that time. They sold their motorcycles in 2009 and 2010 for $8,300 at independent electric mobility store outlets.

The bikes actually worked OK and I suspect that they made money for a while. However, their downfall (from my perspective) was the lack of any sort of supply and maintenance system. They were being sold like you would sell a watch, TV, or cell phone. When the bikes died, their mom and pop retail outlets were left holding the bag and soon became overwhelmed with vehicles that needed warranty repairs, and they just didn't have the time or resources to correct various random issues - leading to unhappy customers and declining sales as the word got around. Then new, better financed and more organized, players entered the field, like Zero and Brammo, who pretty much put an end to the sales of the Motorsport GPR-S bikes (the only model that they ever built in any sort of volume).

Eventually, the company gave up manufacturing DOT approved motorcycles and switched to build-it-yourself kits and selling various EV parts. Then they seemed to have disappeared when the do-it-yourself community vaporized, or just reverted to their core business of selling electrical parts.

As you know, there have been a number of decent electric motorcycles that were designed and hand-built, but almost all fail before going into mass production for a variety of reasons, that were always compounded by a lack of money and investors who wanted instant gratification and were not willing to wait until the market finally matured - privately-funded Zero being the only exception that I can think of.

If this plan of yours was developed 15 years ago, I would say that it had a hope of working out. But nowadays, with the EV industry getting a bad reputation from politicians, regulators, the public, insurance companies and especially investors, it will be a tough row to hoe to get your plan to work. And the current high interest rates are not helping either.   

[jorgebarbosa]

I understand quite well what you mean, I had a strong intuition that this speech was going to happen. I found it quite normal and with much sense.
I thank you for sharing your story but I didn't meant by any means start this kind of discussion with this post. I don't think the plan you mention is the same,a similar plan I've tried back in 2015 and it did not work for many reasons, the time was definitely one of them, it can be in our side or not. 15 years ago would be much much harder to work in my opinion.
I also understand that the politics are not the most positive (mostly US) in this time period but globally the green trend with all its extensions will win.

Of course my background and experience (eventually personality) is important when posting something like this. Believe me when i say i understand what you mean. A successful business in the electric two wheelers is not easy still.( if you want you can check the Gesits electric scooter, developed some years ago now which I've been the project manager for two years and still a successful business nowadays).
Also I notice, that many of this start-ups and newcomers are well intentioned, show much will the beginning but close to zero experience; some start just because they can ride the wave of the green tech funds and honestly, being a 20 years rider plus and working on this area for 9 years, that creates a a bit of frustration.

Lets say that I'm fully aware the difference of making a DIY project, a proto and a production vehicle.
The goal with this post, since the disbelief on new e-moto start-ups is quite high - and rightly so - was to understand if there is a real interest in the community of "electric riders" of making a new e-moto and how could we help each other. How many of us are and what compromise between the specs, design, quality, features and the related/corresponding price would MOST of the people would like to have. I can assure you I have quite some experience in the development of the vehicle until mass production.

Maybe in the end we can have a high numbers of trustful supporters, found a common ground for the final vehicle specs, and use that info and number of people to leverage new or old companies to deliver something like that, or even get the right conditions to manufacturer one independently (that many other do or try to do with none experience on the field)... OR maybe its Friday and I had too much pills 

I agree when you say that zero was basically the only one that succeeded (in the big motorcycle segment) but was also the only one that really had a solid business plan. I believe the Livewire will succeed too. Still, if you had the opportunity to speak with Zero, you will see that even them are attached to some technical solutions that it does not make sense anymore, and that can lead to a less smoother road. On the other hand, they took recent decision that seem much more logic, if they want the business to succeed, this all in my opinion of course.


Cheers,
J. Barbosa

[Richard230]

I wish you the best of luck with your project and hope it works out for you.  In my case, I have just basic EV technical knowledge and only have experience buying fully developed DOT-approved electric motorcycles - 5 so far.

[jorgebarbosa]

Godspeed Richard,

Lets patiently observe the reaction.

BTW, I noticed that you’ve been actively participating in this forum. So I kindly ask you (and possibly other readers) if you can share what would you prefer: having a medium size moto (250 - 400cc format), up to 11kW of power, good torque, a fixed battery or a swappable batteries totaling 4-5kW, and pay for it 6-8k; OR a bigger bike, 30-50 kW of power, packing 14-16kW, fast charge (100km in less then 15min), reasonable built quality at 17-19K?

I thank you again

[TheRan]

A smaller bike will always be an easier sell. It's not like gas bikes where a 600 isn't much more expensive to make than a 400 and a 1000 not much more than that. More powerful electric bikes mean more expensive motors, controllers, and larger heavier batteries.

I don't know what regions you're targeting (too much reading for me if you've already mentioned it, sorry) but the EU is a big market and if you intend to sell there you'll want to take note of their licencing system. There are 3 tiers, A1 up to 11kW, A2 up to about 33kW, and then A is anything above that. The requirements for what licence you can get vary a bit by country but it comes down to age and riding experience, so you'll have more people on A2 licences than full A ones, and then more on A1 than A2 (probably, you do get a lot of people that just wait and go straight to A2). Also electric bikes are rated based on their continuous power output and not peak, and thus Zero currently dominates the A1 class because their lowest bikes are technically 11kW but can peak at 33/44kW with performance up there with the best A2 bikes. Likewise some of their more powerful models would fall into A2 but offer much more peak power.

So, I would say you'd have the most success with the lower powered bike, if you can get it rated for a continuous output of 11kW then you don't have any limit as to who can ride it but if you can have a peak of say 20kW or more then you're going to beat out any other A1 electric bike except for Zero. For battery capacity I would aim for more than 4-5kW/h, more like 6-10kW/h. Zero has 7.2kW/h (actually around 6.3), they also have 14.4 models but the current ones are ridiculously expensive because they're based on even more expensive and powerful models.

[Richard230]

In my case, I would prefer an electric motorcycle that can maintain a speed of 70 mph if necessary with at range of at least 100 miles.  I have a friend who says that he won't buy an electric motorcycle unless he can reliably expect a range of 200 miles at freeway speeds. I told my friend not to hold his breath until that happens.

I might add that we both have been riding motorcycles for over 60 years. There are plenty of Chinese city/suburban types of motorcycles on the market and no doubt more to come at prices that no one outside China could compete with. So that is something to keep in mind for anyone thinking about designing and manufacturing a new EV.

[Specter]

I would want longer range, 100 miles bare minimum at highway speeds, ie 70 MPH plus.
Fast charging is also a must, I don't want to be sitting for an hour and a half to charge my bike, only to be able to go another hour before it's dead again.

I like the Energica models, Ego, and Ribelle.  I have not ridden their other two models however they are similar.
The only drawback I see is the AC charging is only at 3 KW, wish they could twin up the charger to give you 6KW Plus on AC.
That's only a 25 amp draw.  Most 240 volt circuits in the US typically start at a 30 amp breaker and go up from there so this is not going to require any special plugs or wiring to be put in, it is literally plug and play to recharge it.

They DO have DC fast charge with is an absolute must really if you are going to be doing any highway driving from point A to point B and not just around town stuff.

Aaron

[jorgebarbosa]

A smaller bike will always be an easier sell. It's not like gas bikes where a 600 isn't much more expensive to make than a 400 and a 1000 not much more than that. More powerful electric bikes mean more expensive motors, controllers, and larger heavier batteries.

I don't know what regions you're targeting (too much reading for me if you've already mentioned it, sorry) but the EU is a big market and if you intend to sell there you'll want to take note of their licencing system. There are 3 tiers, A1 up to 11kW, A2 up to about 33kW, and then A is anything above that. The requirements for what licence you can get vary a bit by country but it comes down to age and riding experience, so you'll have more people on A2 licences than full A ones, and then more on A1 than A2 (probably, you do get a lot of people that just wait and go straight to A2). Also electric bikes are rated based on their continuous power output and not peak, and thus Zero currently dominates the A1 class because their lowest bikes are technically 11kW but can peak at 33/44kW with performance up there with the best A2 bikes. Likewise some of their more powerful models would fall into A2 but offer much more peak power.

So, I would say you'd have the most success with the lower powered bike, if you can get it rated for a continuous output of 11kW then you don't have any limit as to who can ride it but if you can have a peak of say 20kW or more then you're going to beat out any other A1 electric bike except for Zero. For battery capacity I would aim for more than 4-5kW/h, more like 6-10kW/h. Zero has 7.2kW/h (actually around 6.3), they also have 14.4 models but the current ones are ridiculously expensive because they're based on even more expensive and powerful models.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.
We are very aware of the certifications and licensing in EU, and yes, in terms of market share, 11kW theoretically would make makes sense.
In terms of the homologation itself I don't want to enter in boring details, with electric powertrains you can even have more then 11kW rated of motor power capability, because it’s not evaluated the motor itself but the ability of the vehicle deliver 11kW of continuous power for a period of time.
Your choice was not very clear to me. Yes 11kW you don't have to have motorcycle license in EU -  like most of the scooters - but putting a 6-10 kW battery would make it harder to compete with other scooters - ICE or EV where 80% of the time is in a city usage. 6-10kW is practically impossible to make it swappable for example, and simultaneously quite hard having a fast charge too (possible but not very feasible with a 11kW PT).
Afterall, you will have a concept that most probable is for a scooter client, with the disadvantage that if you make it in a moto format you will leave some of the female buyers outside and the price will be higher definitely higher then other ICE and EV scooters.
So what i mean is, I understand your perspective, but at the same time, those characteristics is a mixed concept, mostly scooter target, with other notorious advantages, but with a higher price.

[jorgebarbosa]

In my case, I would prefer an electric motorcycle that can maintain a speed of 70 mph if necessary with at range of at least 100 miles.  I have a friend who says that he won't buy an electric motorcycle unless he can reliably expect a range of 200 miles at freeway speeds. I told my friend not to hold his breath until that happens.

I might add that we both have been riding motorcycles for over 60 years. There are plenty of Chinese city/suburban types of motorcycles on the market and no doubt more to come at prices that no one outside China could compete with. So that is something to keep in mind for anyone thinking about designing and manufacturing a new EV.

Yes, the range is still a problem for many riders even if w/ fast charging and a trustful grid can potentially solve most of that most of it.
200miles in highway without stopping for a 10min charge, in the next years, is not going to be easy agree.
 
Yes, the Chinese industry makes a business more competitive - which for the final client can be positive - we can perceive it with the auto industry.
If you mean that would not make much sense having the production (or most of it) outside Asia I totally agree. In our latest project, we have sensibly 85% of the BOM of Asian suppliers.
A bit harder to develop and to control quality but with the right partners it pays off definitely... and that's something many ICE big manufactures understood some years ago.

[jorgebarbosa]

I would want longer range, 100 miles bare minimum at highway speeds, ie 70 MPH plus.
Fast charging is also a must, I don't want to be sitting for an hour and a half to charge my bike, only to be able to go another hour before it's dead again.

I like the Energica models, Ego, and Ribelle.  I have not ridden their other two models however they are similar.
The only drawback I see is the AC charging is only at 3 KW, wish they could twin up the charger to give you 6KW Plus on AC.
That's only a 25 amp draw.  Most 240 volt circuits in the US typically start at a 30 amp breaker and go up from there so this is not going to require any special plugs or wiring to be put in, it is literally plug and play to recharge it.

They DO have DC fast charge with is an absolute must really if you are going to be doing any highway driving from point A to point B and not just around town stuff.

Aaron

Thank you Aaron,

Yes, I agree with your last phrase.

As tech preferences, I think the Energica is better then Zero (even if I’m a proud owner of a MY15 Zero SR).
I rode the firsts EGO, and the power is great and a its good e-moto, however IN MY OPINION, conceptually the product is not the best, I mean the concept of a sport moto with that weight is harder for me to accept, yes, torque pushes easily the bike, but the gravity in the bends is very perceptible, adding the shock geometry and some other small points does not help.
I understand very well their choices, afterall design packaging in a moto is not that easy at all for in a e-moto that wants to be sport (very).

Combined with DC charging I also think OBC should have a bigger capability, but I don’t think the only drawback is the 3kw charger but the final price instead.

Yes, a kW6+ would be a very good compromise, more than that globally it’s harder for most of the houses to have it (nowadays), maybe when houses will have their private power source, (panels and batteries or what so ever) that can be viable.

For our lastest internal e-moto project we got a 6kW AC power, mostly because runs in a 300V system.
If you think it can be interesting I’m willing to share the charger specs sheet.

[Specter]

6Kw is easy in any US system.
Your oven takes that much,  Your dryer takes about that much, Your hot water heater 75 percent of that, one wire gauge size up and it's there.
Your AC especially if you have heat strips EASILY takes that much.  Your electric heating can draw as much as 10K when those heat strips kick in.

It's not like you have to have special devices to get the power.  In fact, most people would be charging in their garage?  The power panel in most houses is in the garage, so a quick run of some wire, a nema 14-50 plug, a 50 amp breaker, very common,  and you in theory could actually manage 10 kw or more charging.

The only limiting factor I see with the Energica is it might be a bit cramped under there and heat dissipation from the AC charger, but a small fan would easily fix that.  The programming should not be that bad, even a simple master / slave system would work for control on the CCS1 system.  When it gets up to the top and it's tapering off to balance, you shut one of the chargers down and then the single one handles it.

Just saying.

While I can not speak for everyone / anyone here besides myself, Id love to see the specs of your charger sheet.

Aaron

[jorgebarbosa]

6Kw is easy in any US system.
Your oven takes that much,  Your dryer takes about that much, Your hot water heater 75 percent of that, one wire gauge size up and it's there.
Your AC especially if you have heat strips EASILY takes that much.  Your electric heating can draw as much as 10K when those heat strips kick in.

It's not like you have to have special devices to get the power.  In fact, most people would be charging in their garage?  The power panel in most houses is in the garage, so a quick run of some wire, a nema 14-50 plug, a 50 amp breaker, very common,  and you in theory could actually manage 10 kw or more charging.

The only limiting factor I see with the Energica is it might be a bit cramped under there and heat dissipation from the AC charger, but a small fan would easily fix that.  The programming should not be that bad, even a simple master / slave system would work for control on the CCS1 system.  When it gets up to the top and it's tapering off to balance, you shut one of the chargers down and then the single one handles it.

Just saying.

While I can not speak for everyone / anyone here besides myself, Id love to see the specs of your charger sheet.

Aaron

Well, in Europe is not like that, and other Asian countries neither.
The normal circuits in Europe that runs at 220V (60Hz) most of the houses has a 16A breakers in most of the house installations, then you have an independent ( or slight higher) only for the kitchen area. In north europe I believe is higher still the EU average some years ago I'm quite sure was around 5kW.

You can ask for 6.6kW but you will pay more to your provider always.
The recent houses electrical regulations, for some countries, has the obligation to have a pre-installation for the ev’s, but it’s mostly wiring ready installation and separation in the board.
In EU asking for +/-12kW your provider for household would probably triplicate you kWh cost.
(the house independent heating systems, some are centralized, are natural gas(boilers) systems, not electrical.)

Honestly I don’t think the charger heat dissipation is the problem, at least in the last 3 years you can find easily fan and even water cooling 6.6kW OBC and the programming even less. If I remember well, the Energica runs at 300v system and a big kW 20+ battery, so it shouldn’t be that hard ( if they had even higher voltage would be even cheaper to have a 6.6 OBC.)

Maybe you know that battery lifecycle depends very much of the charging and discharging C’s of of the cell, so MAYBE for “saving” a bit more the cells deterioration – I mean during the slow charge they will be in a optimal C for charging.
Still that can be applied for cells bought at the time the first Energica’s were built, because nowadays, even a 15kW @300V (Energica is even bigger) battery, you can have cells “easily” (140$/Kwh JUST FOR CELLS)  to keep the max theoretical life, therefore 6.6kW charging power wouldn’t be a problem at all.
During a vehicle developing there are many many things that is harder for project outsiders to know/understand. 

Tomorrow from the office, I will share the charger sheet.

Cheers
J.Barbosa