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[CurtG]

This thread was originally titled "Firmware update destroyed my battery and Zero will not replace it".
My last post explains that Zero spent a lot of time on this and in the end a battery management board replacement fixed the problem that stranded me and the "destroyed" battery was really just a weak battery that had been degrading over time.  I owe Zero an apology for calling the battery "destroyed".  They did not charge me for any of this.
Original post:

All,
I am writing to warn potential buyers away from buying a Zero.  Zero strongly encourages owners to keep all firmware up to date.  Unfortunately, I followed this recommendation a few months ago.  While riding home after the firmware update, the battery drained quickly and the bike stalled out while cruising.  When the battery hit 8%, I stopped and begged a ride from a friend with a pickup.  This happened at a place where the battery should have been about 75% full still.  The batteries were both strong before this event.
With me and the motorcycle shop negotiating with Zero, they agreed to send a new battery management board for replacement, which the shop did.  However, it appears the rest of the battery is wasted as it won't accept a charge.  Zero won't replace the battery, so I am stuck with a crippled motorcycle or a very expensive battery replacement.
You may argue that the shop did something wrong during the update, but I would argue that the update process and code in the motorcycle should prevent things that would destroy the battery.  In my mind this leaves Zero to blame.  In any case, I will be donating the motorcycle and will have nothing more to do with Zero.
Model: 2015 FX
Mileage: Approximately 10,000 miles
-Curt

[MVetter]

A 2019 is still under warranty. Is this not worth fighting?

[CurtG]

My mistake.  It is a 2015.

[MVetter]

When you say, "won't accept a charge" does that mean you've tried sources besides the onboard one? Like a Delta Q?

[CurtG]

I don't have the bike back yet (got the bad news this morning).  The dealer said it won't take a charge; I think they are charging individually outside the bike, but I don't know for sure.
The dealer informed me that Zero will go no further.
Also don't know yet what the condition of the other battery is.

[TheRan]

A firmware update shouldn't be able to actually kill the battery in that scenario, if it would usually have been at around 75% there's no way it's going to somehow expend multiple kW/h extra. It's just reading a lower state of charge than it should be. The actual battery, the bits that store the energy and make up most of the cost, should be fine. Even the BMS should in theory be physically fine and unless the firmware is stored in read only memory could theoretically be recovered.

[CurtG]

I think I would tend to agree with you except the replacement BMS board is reporting inability to charge.  The original BMS board failed to connect to the charger, as the dealer described to me.
One scenario I could see causing this is that the BMS balancing electronics (or code) could have been stuck on, causing some or all cells to drain.  I don't know what scheme Zero uses in their batteries, but good (efficient) balancers use inductors or transformers and MOSFETs to divert current to or around particular cells without burning much power.  Unfortunately, this does not mean it can't drain some cells completely in the event of a malfunction.
Given that the original BMS board was damaged, it seems possible that the balancing circuits could have shorted cells, especially if one or more MOSFETs failed.
Something that comes to mind is the possibility that the wrong code was loaded into the BMS or the load was incomplete; even in these case, the BMS should reject the code load.
This is all conjecture, of course;  I may never know what actually happened.

[CurtG]

I just talked to the dealer about this and he told me that the debugging was all done remotely by Zero and that they did not identify a bad charger in the process.  He didn't know whether his guys tried to charge with an external charger though.

[MVetter]

If you can get the contactor to close, you can charge the bike. Whether or not the BMS is in good shape to monitor the cells or enact a balance cycle is another deal. One step at a time, though.

[CurtG]

How do you force the contactor to close manually?  I really appreciate you guys' help and I don't want to burden you too much since I have no experience working on Zero equipment (and don't have confidence in my abilities).
Since the BMS was just replaced, I assume it is in good working order and that the problem is in the bags of chemicals as Zero seems to have determined.
I guess I could disconnect the (hopefully) good battery and try to charge the remaining bad one - I should be able to hear the click if it does close.  Are there any other relays in the system that could fool my ears?
I won't be able to do this until the weather improves enough that I can ride it home (I'm in Colorado).

[DonTom]

How do you force the contactor to close manually?

Simply turn the key on while charging. The OBC will normally close the contactor while charging even with the key out. But if they are using external charging, and not the OBC, the bike will NOT charge at all unless the bike key is on to close the contactor.




FWIW, I don't believe anything they did could ruin your battery.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Curt]

The click of the contactor is unmistakable and impossible to miss in a quiet garage. It does seem unlikely it could dump so much charge quickly without the motor or controller overheating. There is hope!

I'd reiterate to others that one should never allow a dealer to update their firmware unless there is a clear, specific reason or major advantage, AND it's still under warranty. If a bike has been working perfectly for a period of years, an update is definitely NOT needed. Whether or not the update is the cause, it's an extra variable to confound things.

EVs are still experimental vehicles and it's a lot to get 8 years out of one. It's unreasonable to expect the manufacturer to warranty it indefinitely. I feel your loss, because I love mine, but it's at 7 years, and when it goes I'm not going to be too upset with Zero. But I do fault them for not being unable to diagnose major problems instantly and accurately from logs and diagnostic equipment. It's too dealer dependent. Someone like Auriga would do it well, but there's not enough of hims!

[Richard230]

I have mentioned this before, but my daughter's 2014 Zero S with Power Tank has never had any firmware updates since it left the factory and still runs as well and just about as far as my 2018 S with Power Tank, which has had every firmware update that Zero has ever offered for that model.

[CurtG]

If I understand your suggestion, I can plug in the on-board charger and should hear a click from the contactor on the "good" battery.  If I then turn on the key, the contactor in the "bad" battery will be forced to close and I should hear that click.  Otherwise either (1) the contactor is broken or (2) the "bad" contactor closed when I originally plugged in the charger but it was masked by the sound of the "good" contactor.
Is there a way to tell the difference between these two possibilities?
It occurs to me that I could do this with only the "bad" battery installed.  Is that what you recommend?

[MVetter]

Ok we're getting some missing details added here. Didn't realize this was a modular FX. Each brick has its own BMS. Were both BMS units replaced? Can you key the bike on and have both contactors successfully close? If not, will they do it individually if you only have one module connected?