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Author Topic: Regen Question  (Read 3615 times)

SwampNut

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2023, 06:45:20 AM »

Connected to the negative sinusoidal deplenaration input of the retroencabulator.
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toothless

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2024, 01:55:33 AM »

Hello,

I plan on possibly making a regen lever for my Eva. In that case, the throttle signal will be run through a microcontroller first and be mixed with the regen lever, to create any output I want.
Even without the regen lever, it is of course possible to use a microcontroller in between the throttle and the bike to implement any mapping you want.

best regards
DerKrawallkeks


Yes it should work use a quadrilateral shift circuit followed by a flip/flop coupled to a Schmidt trigger on the output.

I know everyone finds this funny but seriously though, any way we can get a regen lever? Would energica themselves ever do it for the people?  :'(
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Specter

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2024, 05:54:25 AM »

WHY?
you have full control of your regen by how much you let off your throttle already.  Turn your regen to max and then use your throttle lever to control how much of it actually kicks in.   Otherwise, imo, it's just reinventing the wheel and another input to have to manage.

Aaron
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Stonewolf

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2024, 01:43:57 AM »

I leave mine on max all the time, I keep hearing it's more efficient to turn it off for cruising but you can just hold the throttle neutral and if that's annoying to you then just give your handlebars the reacharound so you can cruisecontrol it. I just don't understand what scenario you would possibly want *less* regen.
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Grauteufel

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2024, 04:17:13 AM »

Yeah, I'm not following the desire for seperately adjustable regen. In both the bmw and energicas I've ridden, when set to max (other modes limit the maximum available regen), regen is already infinitely adjustable just by using the throttle. Maybe its just I spent most of my on road riding on electric bikes and learned to treat a partially open throtttle as neutral, with anything less acting in place of rear brake and people that didn't learn using the throttle this way aren't used to it?

I've also read that due to energy conversion losses, in flowing riding/driving regen is less efficient than the hypermiling technique of getting slowly to speed and then coasting. In any scenario where braking forces are required (lights, traffic etc) however, regen does capture energy that would otherwise be lost to heat/noise.
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DonTom

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2024, 11:47:00 AM »

Yeah, I'm not following the desire for seperately adjustable regen.
My Chevy Bolt has such and I really like it. I prefer the light regen that is not so touchy and being able to increase it at any time withOUT using a touchy throttle or pedal.


The Bolt is also more fun to drive than is my Tesla because of it. On the Bolt, the regen level is on the left side of the steering wheel. I miss NOT having it in my Tesla.


Yes, I realize you can keep regen at the very max and then have very little or none at all by using the throttle. Same with all the other modes that do nothing except limit us. IOW, keep it in sport mode and drive like you're in eco mode. Same with regen. But it does NOT compare, IMO.


Perhaps it is just my personal preference but do not knock in until you have tried the regen lever.


-Don-  Auburn, CA
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1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
2017 Blk/Gold HD Road Glide Ultra
2017 Org Zero DS ZF 6.5/(now is 7.2)
2017 Red Zero SR ZF13 w/ Pwr Tank
2020 Energica EVA SS9
2023 Energica Experia LE
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Specter

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2024, 08:04:08 PM »

Leave it to DT to bring a car to a bike forum  ::)

If you want your regen less sensitive, then turn the setting down a notch or two, you have several settings to control it's max already.

If you are cruising, then yah i'd just turn it off, because you at that point, are not really changing speeds much to begin with (until the cars get in your way) and freewheeling of course saves energy over braking, but if you need any kind of intentional slowdown, greater than just natural friction / air resistance etc, then regen is more efficient. 

I have not really seen this on my Ribelle, basically because Florida is pretty flat,  but Id assume if you were in a real hilly / mountainous area and peaked, coming down, you could use regen to control your speed and put some of that energy spent climbing up the mountain, back into the battery .vs. having to brake to control your speed descending.  At the end of the day though, the only energy you are recapturing is, the last acceleration / or last climb, whichever applies !

@Grauteufel  I think you make an excellent point.  Those who learned on ICE bikes, have it set in their minds, THAT is the way to ride, and the regen is a whole DIFFERENT idea to them, and just like anything else, learning something different, can sometimes be harder than learning something new, because you keep trying to compare it to what you believe you already know.  Those who learned ON the electric bike though, learned from the beginning how to use it and it's pretty much muscle memory now and they don't even think much on it anymore, just do it.  Im finding this when I let people try my bike, with full regen, and they are like holy shit that's strong, Ill tell them, think of it as your rear brake, it takes a little getting used to but use the throttle to manip it, not just on - off like you are used to along with the clutch,  and once you DO master that, it's a very powerful tool IMO.

Im trying to imagine a paddle on the bike, ok so you are fiddling with a regen paddle, you still will need to remove throttle if you are regen / braking right? , so it's basically another input to manage.  If you want to load up into a turn of something, then rear brake it.... or regen it, because you are STILL under power and the ratio you need, is pretty much preset by the nature of the way it works!

Maybe im missing something, would there be any reason you'd want to regen while keeping the same throttle power on?  If it's for power braking, then why  not just use the rear brake which you are already used to?

Aaron
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weck

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2024, 10:50:45 PM »

Leave it to DT to bring a car to a bike forum  ::)

If you want your regen less sensitive, then turn the setting down a notch or two, you have several settings to control it's max already.

If you are cruising, then yah i'd just turn it off, because you at that point, are not really changing speeds much to begin with (until the cars get in your way) and freewheeling of course saves energy over braking, but if you need any kind of intentional slowdown, greater than just natural friction / air resistance etc, then regen is more efficient. 

I have not really seen this on my Ribelle, basically because Florida is pretty flat,  but Id assume if you were in a real hilly / mountainous area and peaked, coming down, you could use regen to control your speed and put some of that energy spent climbing up the mountain, back into the battery .vs. having to brake to control your speed descending.  At the end of the day though, the only energy you are recapturing is, the last acceleration / or last climb, whichever applies !

@Grauteufel  I think you make an excellent point.  Those who learned on ICE bikes, have it set in their minds, THAT is the way to ride, and the regen is a whole DIFFERENT idea to them, and just like anything else, learning something different, can sometimes be harder than learning something new, because you keep trying to compare it to what you believe you already know.  Those who learned ON the electric bike though, learned from the beginning how to use it and it's pretty much muscle memory now and they don't even think much on it anymore, just do it.  Im finding this when I let people try my bike, with full regen, and they are like holy shit that's strong, Ill tell them, think of it as your rear brake, it takes a little getting used to but use the throttle to manip it, not just on - off like you are used to along with the clutch,  and once you DO master that, it's a very powerful tool IMO.

Im trying to imagine a paddle on the bike, ok so you are fiddling with a regen paddle, you still will need to remove throttle if you are regen / braking right? , so it's basically another input to manage.  If you want to load up into a turn of something, then rear brake it.... or regen it, because you are STILL under power and the ratio you need, is pretty much preset by the nature of the way it works!

Maybe im missing something, would there be any reason you'd want to regen while keeping the same throttle power on?  If it's for power braking, then why  not just use the rear brake which you are already used to?

Aaron

I learned on an ICE bike and have been riding them for 30 years prior to getting the Experia.  Probably similar story to many, as these things ain't exactly cheap so you tend to need to have a few miles on the personal odometer before you can afford one...  anyway, I think it took me about a hour to get smooth with max regen and one "pedal" driving the Experia, to the point where I don't use the brakes much at all in round town riding, only when getting on it in the twisties.

When I picked up my bike from the firmware update, I didn't bother to check the settings and it had reverted to the lowest regen; coming up to the first stop from speed was like a "no brakes" experience.

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Specter

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2024, 12:11:32 AM »

that's kind of funny weck, I did that a few times taking it out after a full charge and it's at 100 percent.  Another time I got a bit of a startle was after running the race bike for 4 days straight, I got used to that and the stupid insane brakes on that, where you just gently bring them on and you stop NOW!  Then I get on the road bike and im stopping and it's like oh what the hell?  stop STOP !!  oh, this is the Ribelle, you gotta pull the brakes hard here :)   This is also one of the reasons I want to try to make the street and race bike as similar as possible so there are not these differences when I hope between them.  Besides, nothing wrong with having strong brakes anywhere,  it's the weaker ones that make you get grey hair!

Aaron
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Grauteufel

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2024, 05:18:38 AM »

reverted to the lowest regen; coming up to the first stop from speed was like a "no brakes" experience.

Ha! I've had this momentary ''oh shit'' feeling too at the first turn after the wife turned on rain mode
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SilentPea

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2024, 08:42:20 AM »

another vote for the independent regen control lever.
Not directly applicable, but on my zero and EM bikes I definitely prefer having independent control of regen from throttle. Being able to whack the throttle all the way closed and manage rear wheel speed with just a left index finger (EM regen lever) is so much easier than floating the throttle perfectly around the dead zone on the zero.  On steep downhills, locking up the rear can be just as whisky throttling it. On a gas bike I would frequently kill the motor and use the clutch to maintain downhill control.

For street, it may not be nearly as critical but it's nice to have the option for independent control (or even adding zero's "regen on brake light" vs "regen on coast" settings if they don't want to support new control inputs)
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jotjotde

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2024, 12:47:13 PM »

There is a highly interesting article about the engineering that went into a Ribelle which I can recommend. https://www.emobility-engineering.com/energica-eva-ribelle/

About regen:
Testoni explains, “When regen is off, the Eva’s braking feels similar to when braking a bike powered by a two-stroke engine. Low regeneration is like braking with a four-cylinder four-stroke engine, medium regenerative braking is like a three-cylinder, and high regeneration is as a two-cylinder and can allow you to coast down to a complete stop without needing the brakes.”

Not having sat on an ICE for many years I cannot confirm if this is right.

Personally, I use the lightest regen setting. When the bike was new, I fiddled with it, but always returned to that.
BTW I cannot feel a large difference when the regen is off (between 95 and 100 % SoC).
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DonTom

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2024, 07:48:22 PM »

Personally, I use the lightest regen setting. When the bike was new, I fiddled with it, but always returned to that.BTW I cannot feel a large difference when the regen is off (between 95 and 100 % SoC).
The very best way, IMO, is light regen with a regen lever (as my Chevy Bolt has)which can make the regen as heavy as wanted as needed. I use the regen level to slow down as well to stop. Not much need for the brakes. I wish all my EVs had such.


-Don-  Auburn, CA
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1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
2017 Blk/Gold HD Road Glide Ultra
2017 Org Zero DS ZF 6.5/(now is 7.2)
2017 Red Zero SR ZF13 w/ Pwr Tank
2020 Energica EVA SS9
2023 Energica Experia LE
2023 Zero DSR/X

Specter

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2024, 08:32:42 PM »

jojotide when your SOC is 95 and above, your regen is neutered a bit, as there is not a lot of space to put it in the battery, so it may not work at all or just very lightly.  Your regen light should actually be flashing on your dash to indicate that your regen is in a less than ideal mode.

As for just whacking the throttle off and just using the regen paddle as a controlling brake, well, yes thats an option too.  However holding the throttle where you want it at, will do the same thing, or setting your cruise control to that speed, if the bike starts speeding up, it'll automatically take the regen to bring it back in speed specs.   Out of curiosity, how much of a grade are you on to have the bike be able to actually maintain or keep speed on it's own without any power input?  Ive hit a 3.5 degree grade before on a bridge and it still slowed a bit on it's own. 

Again, I live in Florida and we dont' have hills and valleys enough to let me enjoy such a scenario.  Maybe I need to schedule a sightseeing tour somewhere.  Energica is racing the Hooligan in Texas in a few months I think???  Mebbe trailer to hussy there, see the race and find some hilly terrain to play with?   Just an idea.

Aaron

Ps. that's another thing that came to mind yesterday, if I am going to be on these road trips, I gotta take the feathered kid with me so Ill need to build a more portable bird cage to keep in the trailer to keep him in during track times :D  Otherwise he'll be everywhere attention whoring and stealing snacks!
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Stonewolf

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Re: Regen Question
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2024, 10:32:51 PM »

I have found a hill or two here and there where max regen can't keep me at the 20 or 30 posted but that's pretty unusual.
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